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View Poll Results: Who's side are you on?
The Central Powers 138 29.18%
The Triple Entente 186 39.32%
Neither one of them 149 31.50%
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 11:13 PM   #1311

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Originally Posted by Mikestone8 View Post
Trouble is, that map doesn't show how the ethnic groups were distributed.

A proper ethnographic map (there are plenty online) shows that there were plenty of Magyar areas directly adjacent to Hungary's post-Trianon borders.


https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...x=1&ajaxhist=0
True, but it does demonstrate that the areas Hungary lost did not have 51% Magyar population in each region.

And while there could well be the case that the post WWI borders could have been drawn "better" to better balance the Magyar populations along the borders, other issues, such what would be the most defendable line have also gone into it. And if one was to simply draw the borders based on where people were, then you'd see a Hungary with a large amount of territory it really wouldn't be able to defend, such as the "islands" in Romania or in what would become Yugoslavia.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 11:30 PM   #1312
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True, but it does demonstrate that the areas Hungary lost did not have 51% Magyar population in each region.

And while there could well be the case that the post WWI borders could have been drawn "better" to better balance the Magyar populations along the borders, other issues, such what would be the most defendable line have also gone into it. And if one was to simply draw the borders based on where people were, then you'd see a Hungary with a large amount of territory it really wouldn't be able to defend, such as the "islands" in Romania or in what would become Yugoslavia.

I never said they could have kept the "islands".

As for the border areas, what it seems to boil down to is that both sides' peace treaties were pretty much alike - they went for ethnic boundaries except where this would work in favour of a defeated power, in which case some other consideration was conveniently "discovered" to be more important.

Last edited by Mikestone8; August 2nd, 2017 at 11:48 PM.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 12:31 AM   #1313

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I never said they could have kept the "islands".
But to those that found the Treaty of Trianon completely unacceptable and argued in favor of a more "equitable" settlement... not only argued that Hungary should get those "islands" but also the areas occupied by Romanians in between them, so that Hungary had a direct access of control to all of the islands...

Essentially, Hungary loses WWI and pays no consequence for losing. Certainly seems fair... for Hungary. Romania and Serbia... not so much.

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Originally Posted by Mikestone8 View Post
As for the border areas, what it seems to boil down to is that both sides' peace treaties were pretty much alike - they went for ethnic boundaries except where this would work in favour of a defeated power, in which case some other consideration was conveniently "discovered" to be more important.
Perhaps... but then... with regard to the territories the Hungarians lost, they didn't have a population of over 50% in those territories and those, like Horthy, who argued against the loss of the territories have treated it as though they had a many more people there then they in fact did...

And regardless... one thing I find most amusing is the perception by some people that it's okay for Germany to act like a winner and demand others give things to Germany, but it's NOT okay for anyone act like a winner when they beat Germany.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 01:05 AM   #1314
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Essentially, Hungary loses WWI and pays no consequence for losing. Certainly seems fair... for Hungary. Romania and Serbia... not so much.
Even if they kept all islands with territory connecting it to them they woudl still lose large amount of what they considered their rightfull territory for centuries.hardly without consequences.



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And regardless... one thing I find most amusing is the perception by some people that it's okay for Germany to act like a winner and demand others give things to Germany, but it's NOT okay for anyone act like a winner when they beat Germany.
i concur.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 04:44 AM   #1315

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Germany and Austria could have agreed to talks and stopped action the Balkans and that would have stopped the war. But neither Germany nor Austria felt that was acceptable, they were seeking to impose their military solution by unilateral military action, the only way to oppose this was military action as they were refusing talks. Russia started to mobilisation a long slow process that would take weeks. Germany immediately started the European war. Thought the crisis the definitive actions are German and Austrian.
Austria-Hungary and especially Germany had lost hope in a diplomatic solution after Britain and Russia's diplomatic conduct during the First Balkan War had made it perfectly clear that the Entente powers favoured the interests of their allies and revisionist forces in the Balkans over preserving the peace and status quo. The reluctance of the Entente powers to act in accordance with the London Conference and their willingness to risk a general European war by upsetting the delicate balance of power in the Balkans is what set the stage for the events of 1914. The Concert of Europe was on its last two feet in 1912-13 and when the next conflict came around, Austria-Hungary decided to act unilaterally. The best option would have been for Britain and France to restrain Russia and let Austria-Hungary carry out a punitive expedition against Serbia. A general European war would have been averted and the balance of power restored.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 04:55 AM   #1316
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Originally Posted by Gaius Julius Civilis View Post
Austria-Hungary and especially Germany had lost hope in a diplomatic solution after Britain and Russia's diplomatic conduct during the First Balkan War had made it perfectly clear that the Entente powers favoured the interests of their allies and revisionist forces in the Balkans over preserving the peace and status quo. The reluctance of the Entente powers to act in accordance with the London Conference and their willingness to risk a general European war by upsetting the delicate balance of power in the Balkans is what set the stage for the events of 1914. The Concert of Europe was on its last two feet in 1912-13 and when the next conflict came around, Austria-Hungary decided to act unilaterally. The best option would have been for Britain and France to restrain Russia and let Austria-Hungary carry out a punitive expedition against Serbia. A general European war would have been averted and the balance of power restored.
Oh so the central powers can redraw the map of Europe by amred force and thats not aggression. Which powers were seeking impose their will by force?

Austrian and Germany lit the powder keg. It was their way or war.

be clear Austria and germany were the ones advocating violent change , unwilling to listen to talk diplomacy. They were the clear cut aggressors.

It was Austria and Germany that were unwilling to perserve peace or the status quo.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 05:12 AM   #1317

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pugsville View Post
Oh so the central powers can redraw the map of Europe by amred force and thats not aggression. Which powers were seeking impose their will by force?

Austrian and Germany lit the powder keg. It was their way or war.

be clear Austria and germany were the ones advocating violent change , unwilling to listen to talk diplomacy. They were the clear cut aggressors.

It was Austria and Germany that were unwilling to perserve peace or the status quo.
Besides the above well-taken points from pugsville in reply to post #1315, Gaius is in #1315 repeating specious (that's a polite term) claims from a previous thread regarding 1911-13 diplomacy.

Gaius, you are invited to return to that thread to reply to my points to you before derailing this thread. Much appreciated, thank you.

Last edited by Kotromanic; August 3rd, 2017 at 06:02 AM.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 05:13 AM   #1318

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Originally Posted by pugsville View Post
Oh so the central powers can redraw the map of Europe by amred force and thats not aggression. Which powers were seeking impose their will by force?

Austrian and Germany lit the powder keg. It was their way or war.

be clear Austria and germany were the ones advocating violent change , unwilling to listen to talk diplomacy. They were the clear cut aggressors.

It was Austria and Germany that were unwilling to perserve peace or the status quo.
Germany and Austria-Hungary went to war in 1914 out of desperation, not out of aggression or with the intent to redraw the map of Europe. Unlike the Entente powers, Berlin and Vienna did not seek territorial expansion or to change the status quo. After 1913, Germany and Austria-Hungary had become disillusioned by European diplomacy and convinced that a diplomatic solution would no longer work to solve their problems. A more sensible diplomacy of the Entente powers could have prevented WW1. Britain and France should have restrained Russia and its Balkan allies, instead of encouraging their expansionism and revisionism. It's what made a general European war inevitable. Of course this doesn't absolve Germany of its responsibility for its actions in 1914.

Last edited by Gaius Julius Civilis; August 3rd, 2017 at 05:50 AM.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 05:45 AM   #1319

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If Austria was so committed to peace and status quo then why did they annex Bosnia and caused a huge crisis? Why did they immediately accuse Serbia of organizing the Sarajevo assassination without hard proof? Why did they deliberately their ultimatum to Serbia unacceptable for a sovereign country? And Austria was just as guilty of increasing tensions in the Balkans, they imposed a customs blockade on Serbia because the new government wasn't pro-Austrian like the previous Serbian government was. Why did Austria create the Schutzkorps in 1908 to terrorise the Serbs of Herzegovina? Really a nation dedicated to peace.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 12:03 PM   #1320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaius Julius Civilis View Post

The best option would have been for Britain and France to restrain Russia and let Austria-Hungary carry out a punitive expedition against Serbia. A general European war would have been averted and the balance of power restored.
I see it in direct contrast to that.

Balkan nations had been fighting for independence for a while, and had not long before rid themselves of the Ottoman Empire. Why should they be swallowed up by a replacement empire?

The fact of the matter is that the Serbian government did not attack Austria-Hungary and as such they had no jurisdiction in Serbia.

The fault, with regard to this particular cog in the wheel, lay with the Austro-Hungarians.

I mean, why not give the Germans a free hand in lording it over the Dutch so that we can all have a peaceful life?
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