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View Poll Results: Who's side are you on?
The Central Powers 139 29.20%
The Triple Entente 187 39.29%
Neither one of them 150 31.51%
Voters: 476. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 12th, 2017, 05:05 AM   #1371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azatoth View Post
What was russian persectuion of jews in ww1?Any notable example?Crimes agaisn civolians commited by other entente powers?

On other hand we have rape of Belgium,Austrohungartian crimes against civilians in nrothern serbia and Bulgarian crimes in Serbia and Turkish genocide attempts.I dont see eqivalence between Entente and Central powers-central powers seems worse to me.Open to be proven wrong.
In Russia and many territories controled or influenced by Russia (like russian controled Poland or Lithuania) jews were lynched and killed while the austrians and the germans were moving forward in the battle field, because politicians promoted the idea that the reason why the enemy was winning was that jews were cooperating with them. In the years of 1915 and 1916 those acts were very common, since it was the years of bigger military success of the Central Powers in the Eastern front.

On another note, which is usually unknown, more than 100 000 chinese workers were hired by the Entente powers for civil works during the war: working in factories, building roads and bridges, etc. This workers received one franc per day, work 10 hours or more, they couldn't use the same bathrooms or facilities that the europeans used, and they were serverely punished anytime they stopped working because, for example, they would hide when bombs exploded. A communication manual of a british officer, founded in the end of the war, only had this type of sentences translated to chinese: "Work harder", "work or don't get paid", "shut up and work".
The germans enslaved belgiums and french people, but the Entente powers also enslaved the chinese workers as well.

And, like i said, there's other cases in the battle field, like killing soldiers who were surrendering, many british soldiers were judge in martial trials for robberies and loots.

Like i said earlier, in a war there's no perfect armys, nor a good or a bad side in terms of general behaviour. All armys end up doing something wrong.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 06:08 AM   #1372
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I. A communication manual of a british officer, founded in the end of the war, only had this type of sentences translated to chinese: "Work harder", "work or don't get paid", "shut up and work".
.
source? don't think the British used Chinese workers. And why would they bother for French workers?

British and French used a lot of colonial manpower in various forms. And I'm sure in the main they were treated poorly.'

hmm a little research and indeed the British did use Chinese labour.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Labour_Corps

http://multimedia.scmp.com/ww1-china/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...corps-memorial

http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...stern-front-2/

https://gerryco23.wordpress.com/2014...inese-and-1ww/

Last edited by pugsville; August 12th, 2017 at 06:20 AM.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 06:12 AM   #1373
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The germans enslaved belgiums and french people, but the Entente powers also enslaved the chinese workers as well.
.
the Germans as a matter of deliberate policy executing civilian hostages for crime steely did not commit in Belgium. They decided before the war at the least resistance they would round up civilians and shot them which they did , about 6,000. The crimes turned out to be totally figments of the German imagination.

The Germans laos deliberated targeted Hospital ships as a matter of policy during the war. They believe that the Entente was ferrying troops across the channel with them , thus issued orders that Hospital ships were to be targeted. neutral officers were aboard to make sure they were not used as troop transports, which they weren't.

Therse two policies were not accidents, officers or men acting on their own initiative or lone wolf war criminals but acts of deliberate policy.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 06:22 AM   #1374

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Originally Posted by Azatoth View Post
What was russian persectuion of jews in ww1?Any notable example?Crimes agaisn civolians commited by other entente powers?
The Jews of Austrian Galicia were subjected to deportation and systematic persecution designed to destroy their livelihood. In Russia itself hundreds of thousands of Jews (and ethnic-Germans) were uprooted and deported, thereby destroying entire communities. The Russian government basically created a hostile climate in which Russian Jews could be raped, killed and dispossessed by soldiers and civilians alike.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 07:36 AM   #1375
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Look up what happened to Moslems in Russian Turkestan in the Summer of 1916, when they rose in the face of Russian attempts to conscript their young men into labour battalions thousands of miles away at the front. According to Hopkirk [1]
“Some of these [Russian] peasant farmers - - saw the disturbances as a godsend- an opportunity to drive the Muslims from prime agricultural land which they had owned for hundreds of years. Attacked by the better-armed and well-organised Russians, thousands of Kazakh and Kirghiz tribesmen forced to flee for their lives, abandoning their livestock and in some cases even their children and old people. - - - Russian relief columns began to arrive in the Kazakh and Kirghiz regions, bent on punishing the troublesome tribesmen. Once more a blood bath was unleashed on the long-standing Russian colonial philosophy of ‘the harder you hit them, the longer they remain cowed’. - - Just how many Muslims lost their lives will never be known - - - The picture is complicated by the wholesale flight of Kazakhs and Kirghiz across the mountains into Chinese Turkestan to try to escape from the bloodshed. Many of them perished from exposure or starvation on the way, and others while trying to return. One Soviet expert calculated that the Muslim population of Central Asia fell by one million during the war years, largely as the result of the events of 1916.”
[1] On Secret Service East of Constantinople, Ch 15.

Is there any real point in all this swapping of atrocity stories? There was plenty of dirt to go round, and that's all we really need to know.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 07:39 AM   #1376
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source? don't think the British used Chinese workers. And why would they bother for French workers?

British and French used a lot of colonial manpower in various forms. And I'm sure in the main they were treated poorly.'

hmm a little research and indeed the British did use Chinese labour.
Multiple books explain the use of chinese labour, including Martin Gilbert's book on the First World War.

They would bother for chinese workers in France because many of them were building roads, bridges and stations that the british army would use, in regions like Somme or Vimy.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 07:49 AM   #1377
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the Germans as a matter of deliberate policy executing civilian hostages for crime steely did not commit in Belgium. They decided before the war at the least resistance they would round up civilians and shot them which they did , about 6,000. The crimes turned out to be totally figments of the German imagination.

The Germans laos deliberated targeted Hospital ships as a matter of policy during the war. They believe that the Entente was ferrying troops across the channel with them , thus issued orders that Hospital ships were to be targeted. neutral officers were aboard to make sure they were not used as troop transports, which they weren't.

Therse two policies were not accidents, officers or men acting on their own initiative or lone wolf war criminals but acts of deliberate policy.
Officially, the kaiser only allowed an unrestricted sea war in 1917. But everything you say is completely true: there were hospital-ships being targeted threw out the war, in the Mediterranean and in the Atlantic Ocean, specially in the coast of Turkey, Greece and France. And it's also true that, despite the fact that Germany promissed the US that they would approach neutral or civil boats before any military action, the german navy never really did it, and attacked every boat they thought it could transport troops, weapons or any other resources to the Entente.

But we can't forget that, on the Entente side, Great Britain instituted a severe sea block to Germany, forbidding boats with food to reach german ports. In 1916 between 80 000 to 100 000 germans died because of the lack of food in the country. There were commercial boats that were attacked by british navy ships, or sunk by underwater mines that Great Britain droped in the coast of Germany.

And let's also not forget that the british ships very often would present an american flag, so they could approach german ships, and then attack them. In 1916 this was so common that the Kaiser made a protest to Woodrow Wilson about this inappropriate and ilegal use of the american flag by the british navy, to what Woodrow Wilson answered that he would demand the british not to pratice that strategy.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 08:09 AM   #1378

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..........................On another note, which is usually unknown, more than 100 000 chinese workers were hired by the Entente powers for civil works during the war: working in factories, building roads and bridges, etc. ..............
Only if they had not read that much about the Western Front -- in fact something like a half dozen won gallantry awards and at least two were executed by the British (exasperated by their habit of murdering each other in feuds).

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This workers received one franc per day, work 10 hours or more, they couldn't use the same bathrooms or facilities that the europeans used, and they were serverely punished anytime they stopped working because, for example, they would hide when bombs exploded.
.
They received 1-5 francs a day depending, and that was about 1/3rd that a British labourer would earn but much more than they would earn in China. So perhaps not 'fair' by modern standards (for government employ or 'legal' workers anyway) but hardly one of the great injustices of history and in no way compared to German atrocities in Belgium and Northern France in 1914.

And a 10 hour day was the norm for all labourers by 1918-- whatever their ethnic origin-- British (men and women) included.

Who had 'nice' conditions in France 1914-18?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuga View Post
A communication manual of a british officer, founded in the end of the war, only had this type of sentences translated to chinese: "Work harder", "work or don't get paid", "shut up and work".
.

Perhaps he'd have simply used the hundreds of Chinese students employed as interpreters instead? but again if you think The Chinese Labour Corps working hard under appalling conditions is a great injustice of WWI you really haven't read that much about WWI.

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The germans enslaved belgiums and french people, but the Entente powers also enslaved the chinese workers as well.............
.
The German exploited their occupied territories and carried out official 'terror' to subdue civilian resistance in their advance this does not compare to the 'enslavement' of Chinese labourers.

Also slaves do not get paid, receive family allowances, board and lodge and get free transport home at the end of their contract.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 08:24 AM   #1379
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For what i read, the chinese salary was considerably inferior to the french salary in the same circunstances. If i'm wrong, i'll accept the correction.

I also mentioned how chinese weren't allowed to use the same facilities as the european, for racial reasons. For example, the "bathrooms" they had were installed wood works above holes in the ground.

If the term "enslavement" is not correct, i'll correct it and call it, at least, exploitation and miss treatment. Because the evidences are that the chinese workers conditions were worst that the war circunstances would determine, and because the Entente powers wanted so.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 09:10 AM   #1380

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For what i read, the chinese salary was considerably inferior to the french salary in the same circunstances. If i'm wrong, i'll accept the correction..
As I said they were about 1/3 of what a British worker could expect -- but given the social conditions of the early 20th century that should hardly be a surprise and their working day was the same as the long one expected of all workers by 1918

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I also mentioned how chinese weren't allowed to use the same facilities as the european, for racial reasons. For example, the "bathrooms" they had were installed wood works above holes in the ground..
Should that really be a surprise in the world of the early 20th century? may be shocking to 21st century eyes but in the context of the time hardly something new.

Would the Chinese have really wanted to share 'facilities' with 'white troops'?

and if you think that a latrine consisting of wood across a pit is a 'poor' conditions in regards of the Western Front 1914-18, then sorry you haven't grasped the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuga View Post
If the term "enslavement" is not correct, i'll correct it and call it, at least, exploitation and miss treatment. Because the evidences are that the chinese workers conditions were worst that the war circunstances would determine, and because the Entente powers wanted so.
Why would the Entente 'want them' to be worse?

Workers exploited in the early twentieth century? is that unusual? this is the time that boys in their teens went mines in Britain as a norm.

To given an indication of the conditions for workers -- the British recruited specialist 'mine' companies of the Royal Engineers from the coalfields of Britain , 80-100 miners elected their own NCO's and were put under the charges of a new young (straight from School) Officer (the units 'young gentleman'). They literally worked and fought underneath the Western Front, when they returned home after the war and were asked what it was like 'not too bad really'?! -- gives an idea how hard their normal lives were.

Conditions on most fronts were grim but the Chinese Labour Corps was part of an army (although not technically a military component) and as such was part of an hierarchy.

At the top are Elite combat formations who get priority in most if not all things at the bottom at foreign civilian labourers whose combat value is limited in the extreme. If you expect all units to be treated the same then you are being na´ve in the extreme.
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