beorna

Belloc's question about Polish teaching of WWII had let me start this thread. I would like to know, what our members know about the expulsion and the flight. What happened, where did they come from, who is responsible, which countries participated, how many were expelled, how many died? What's about the new settlers?

Tulun

I know this disgracefull act happened in Hungary also, i consider responsible both the Soviet occupiers and the collaborationist Hungarian government for it. in a short period this was the second time when the state betrayed a large group of her own citizens (first was the holocaust). The original basis were those who declared themselves ethnic German or German mother tongue on the 1941 census + Volksbund members (pro-Nazi organisation of the ethnic Germans of Hungary) and serving voluntarily in German army formations (Verordnung 12.330/1945. ME der ungarischen Regierung über die Umsiedlung von Angehörigen der deutschen Bevölkerung, die sich bei der Volkszählung von 1941 zur deutschen Volkszugehörigkeit oder Muttersprache bekannt hatten. Auszusiedeln waren auch diejenigen, die Mitglied des Volksbundes oder Freiwillige einer bewaffneten deutschen Formation waren.)
but then this was eased in 1946, those people who had German mother tongue but declared themselves ethnic Hungarian, and those who were not Volksbund members or were not serving voluntarily in the German army were exempted from it (Verordnung von Innenminister László Rajk Nr. 32.920/1946 BM über die Freistellung von Personen deutscher Muttersprache, die sich bei der Volkszählung von 1941 als ungarische Nationalität angegeben hatten, und nicht die Mitglieder des Volksbundes oder einer sonstigen bewaffneten Einheit waren.) But in practice they often didnt differentiate between those ethnic Germans who were conscripted to the Waffen SS and those who joined there voluntarily, and often family members were also deported.

But Thank God it was still only partial and we still have a considerable and ethnic German minority. many of them were hiding from the expulsion or just returned soon, but all together somewhere between 150,000-200,000 Ungarndeutschen were forced to leave the country between 1946-48. I don't know about any death happening in it, "only" their homes and properties were robbed from them. And in many cases the expelled Hungarians from Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia were settled on their place.

KÖZÉP- ÉS KELET-EURÓPAI TÖRTÉNELEM ÉS TÁRSADALOM KUTATÁSÁÉRT KÖZALAPÍTVÁNY the site has also German version, there is a chronology, photos, datas, official documents on the site.

In the early 90ies the citizenship law was changed declaring the deprival of Hungarian citizenship of the expulsed Ungarndeutchen null, so any ethnic German who lost his/her citizenship during the expulsion can get it back by a simple declaration of intent. I personally don't find it enough, i would extend it to their descendants and if possible at least a simbolic restoration/compensation for their lost properties. Well no money since we don't have, but there are many small villages where population is shrinking so we could give a plot or house for every German who lost his house during the expulsion.

Edward

Wiki article on this subject

Virgil

It is difficult for the Communists to explain, when you have hundreds of thousands of deaths, if not more than a million. It is a form of genocide if you ask me. I am not excusing the Nazis mind you, just pointing out that the Communists have a horrible history as well.

beorna

Well, then one should as well see Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944 for a start

vid

Czechoslovakia has deported about 3 million Germans after WW2, as was decided by Churchill+Roosevelt+Stalin. Only few exceptions were given to those who could prove participation in anti-nazi resistance, or for a time to economically vital Germans. During deportation, some cases of lynching happened. Public mood at the end of WW2 was of course extremely against Germans, who were viewed simply as Nazis.

Today this topic is often discussed, and there are many (even non-radical) people standing on both sides of debate. Some say deportations were justifiable after German minority was used by Hitler to break down Czechoslovakia, after vast majority of them supported Nazism, and after how vast majority of them behaved during Nazi occupation. Other say this was crime comparable to other forcible deportations, and it can't be excused by whatever Nazis did.

arras

Except expulsion of Germans was not exclusive to communists. Czechoslovak president Benes who signed deportation orders was democrat. He did it just after return from exile in London. Expulsion was approved by both Soviet Union and Western Allies.

Virgil

Very good point. I just have a bit of a problem with the way communism is remembered or viewed in the west now. We used to go after people in my country that were communists, such as the Rosenbergs. Joseph McCarthy went after them without shame. More people died under Stalin and Mao than under Hitler I believe.

arras

This is very relative. For example Hitler was in power for very short time compared to Stalin and Mao. Then how many people died in China under Mao and under colonial joke? British and Japanese? Colonialism is unrivalled I think when number of victims is considered.

Also numbers of victims during communism seems to be subject of some heavy propaganda sometimes, not honest historiography. Therefore I do not know how reliable those numbers are.

But regardless of this, point on which I base my opinion when comparing nazis and communists is that communists newer annihilated, not even intended to annihilate whole nations. Nazis on the other hand made annihilation of several nations even races their goal. Communists were believers in idealistic but impractical ideology which is not compatible with imperfect human nature. Result was that they ended using violence to reach that ideal. They were not genocidal. Nazis were also sort of idealists, but their ideals were simply evil from the start, unlike ideals of communists. Communists intend was to create better world for all people. Nazi intend was to make few in to gods on Earth and enslave the rest.

Of course it makes no difference to someone who died on battlefield, in prison or in work camp if he died because of nice idealistic ideology going wrong or one outright evil. Still I think this background should be taken in to consideration.

Communism in general I think is demonstration of "road to hell been pawed by good intentions".

Virgil

I think we can agree on many points. The one thing about communism that bothers me above all others is that they went after the best and the brightest and killed them in many cases. This was surely the case with Pol Pot and perhaps Stalin. Stalin's purges targeted the leadership of the Russian military at times, not because he had evidence but just because they were capable, I think. I could be wrong.