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Old December 10th, 2013, 04:16 AM   #101
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Quote:
If you want to play with words ...
Alpin Luke,

You are the one who is falsifying the meaning of words.

"Natuerliche Verminderung" means "natural decrease" and nothing else.

If the sexes are kept separate and there are no further births in a population, then obviously over a period of time that population will die out naturally, as its members die.

That is quite clearly what the quoted words mean.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 05:29 AM   #102

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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael mills View Post
Alpin Luke,

You are the one who is falsifying the meaning of words.

"Natuerliche Verminderung" means "natural decrease" and nothing else.

If the sexes are kept separate and there are no further births in a population, then obviously over a period of time that population will die out naturally, as its members die.

That is quite clearly what the quoted words mean.
That it was exactly what they were planning.

About "falsifying" this or that ... such a sense translation is possible.

I've provided not only the German words, but also the link to the site. Everybody [as you have legitimately done] can translate for German.

May be it's your mind attitude to see malicious intents here and there.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 05:32 AM   #103

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For example:

how do you translate this section?

Quote:
Der allfällig endlich verbleibende Restbestand wird, da es sich bei diesem zweifellos um den widerstandsfähigsten Teil handelt, entsprechend behandelt werden müssen, da dieser, eine natürliche Auslese darstellend, bei Freilassung als Keimzelle eines neuen jüdischen Aufbaues anzusprechen ist. (Siehe die Erfahrung der Geschichte.)
I understand it and I understand the sense of what is written.

Which is your first impression?
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Old December 10th, 2013, 07:09 AM   #104

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Well, just for completeness, let's see what the following paragraph tells us.

First of all, it's related to what to do with the Jews surviving to the working conditions of the camps [and the fact that they wondered about this, it's already quite peculiar].

So ...

1st part
Quote:
Der allfällig endlich verbleibende Restbestand wird, da es sich bei diesem zweifellos um den widerstandsfähigsten Teil handelt, entsprechend behandelt werden müssen,
The translation I can submit to the discussion

"The possible final remaining remnant, since it will consist without doubt of the most resistant part of it, will have to be treated accordingly,"

Now, we could wonder about that "will have to be treated accordingly".

We are considering what they wrote in relation to the part of Jews able to survive to the working conditions of the camps [to what someone has called the "extermination by work"].

What were they thinking about?

2nd part
Quote:
da dieser, eine natürliche Auslese darstellend, bei Freilassung als Keimzelle eines neuen jüdischen Aufbaues anzusprechen ist. (Siehe die Erfahrung der Geschichte.)
the translation I suggest

"as this, representing a natural selection, act as a the seed of a new Jewish revival [reconstruction, rebirth ...]. (See the experience of history.)"

This is the motivation for that "will have to be treated accordingly".

And here comes a big question mark:

what does this mean, practically?

Which destiny were they imagining for the Jews who survived to the working conditions of the camps?
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Old December 10th, 2013, 03:59 PM   #105
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What Heydrich is clearly suggesting is that at some point in the future, after the number of the deported Jews has been greatly reduced by natural decrease, a process that would occur fairly rapidly, since there would be no births and mortality would probably increase, the remaining Jews will have to be actively killed, since they could not be allowed to go free.

When exactly that point in the future would be is left unstated.

What Heydrich was proposing was something like this.

The plan revealed by him was to deport the entire Jewish population of German-controlled Europe into conquered Soviet territory, and use that part of it fit for labour, ie persons aged between about 16 and 40, for building roads. That would mean that upon completion of the deportation process there would be an incarcerated Jewish population in the conquered Soviet territory of several millions, ranging in age from 0 to over 80.

Let us assume that all the children under the age of, say, 10, and all the older people over the age of ,say, 70 rapidly died due to the relatively harsh conditions. Let us also assume that over time most of the incarcerated Jews died fairly soon after reaching the age of 60, again due to the harsh conditions.

Since the sexes would be kept separate, there would be no future births in the incarcerated Jewish population, and the size of that population would rapidly diminish.

After the elapse of 10 years, there would a much smaller remaining incarcerated Jewish population aged between 20 and 60-plus. After the elapse of a further 10 years, there would be an even smaller remaining incarcerated Jewish population aged between 30 and 60-plus. With each passing year that population would grow older and smaller, until eventually it died out.

What Heydrich is suggesting is that it would be too onerous to keep the deported Jews incarcerated until they had all died out, which would take about five decades, and that the alternatives were releasing the remaining Jews at some point in the future, or else actively killing them. He himself recommends killing them, since the alternative of releasing them would carry with it the danger that the released Jews could revive the Jewish race through reproduction.

Heydrich's use of the term "bei Freilassung", "if released", is significant, since it indicates that the release of the deported Jews at some point in the future had not been ruled out in advance, and was still being considered as a possibility by some parts of the German bureaucracy.

It needs to be borne in mind that the German Government's concept of a mass deportation of the Jewish population of German-occupied Europe into conquered Soviet territory was based on the observation of the preceding Soviet practice of deporting its opponents in large numbers into remote areas and their utilisation for forced labour. The typical Soviet sentence of deportation for labour was 25 years, which allowed the possibility of release if the prisoner survived for that period of time.

Accordingly, the idea must have been present in the minds of some German bureaucrats that the surviving deported Jews might possibly be released at some point in the future, after Germany had achieved victory and thoroughly consolidated its rule over Europe, including most of European Russia. Heydrich was arguing against that possibility, asserting that it would be too dangerous to release any of the surviving Jews at any time in the future.

After the elapse of a 25-year period of incarceration, based on the Soviet model, Jews aged between 10 and 35 at the time of deportation would be aged between 35 and 60. If released, the younger members of that group, those aged between 35 and 45, would still be capable of reproduction if released and the separation of the sexes ended. That is why Heydrich was arguing against release, and in favour if killing them.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 11:38 PM   #106

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Yes, actually this policy is comparable [when not equal to] with the policy of deportation to labor camps run by Soviet authorities.

From the perspective of exploitation of workers "until the end", the German "lager" and the Soviet "gulag" could be seen as equivalent [with the technical difference that there was a theoretical and remote possibility to come out still alive from a gulag, but we know well that a large majority of the prisoners in the gulag system simply died].
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Old December 15th, 2013, 10:55 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael mills View Post
What Heydrich is clearly suggesting is that at some point in the future, after the number of the deported Jews has been greatly reduced by natural decrease, a process that would occur fairly rapidly, since there would be no births and mortality would probably increase, the remaining Jews will have to be actively killed, since they could not be allowed to go free.
Isn't it a leap to say the survivors will be actively killed?

To get a document which actually said "we must exterminate the Jews" would be a golden find but isnt that the problem, there is no such document. That is why people have to jump through hoops to say words like 'evacuate' are euphemisms for killing or gasing or whatever...
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Old December 15th, 2013, 04:59 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterTaut View Post
Isn't it a leap to say the survivors will be actively killed?

To get a document which actually said "we must exterminate the Jews" would be a golden find but isnt that the problem, there is no such document. That is why people have to jump through hoops to say words like 'evacuate' are euphemisms for killing or gasing or whatever...
You can not deny Sobibor, Treblinka, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Malay-Trostenets, etc.
To do so is a vulgar blasphemy on the souls eliminated on these sites.

These WERE DEATH CAMPS.

No accord given for utility...you went there? You died.

Period.

Rationalize this?

I await a response.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 01:58 AM   #109

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterTaut View Post
To get a document which actually said "we must exterminate the Jews" would be a golden find but isnt that the problem, there is no such document.
We do not need a document to establish lethal intent as we have evidence in the form of the camps themselves, witness testimony from guards and survivors, mass graves and huge amounts of propaganda.
You can throw words like euphemism around all you like and it will not alter the facts, document or not, it was an attempt at genocide.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 03:19 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Iron1 View Post
You can not deny Sobibor, Treblinka, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Malay-Trostenets, etc.
To do so is a vulgar blasphemy on the souls eliminated on these sites.
These WERE DEATH CAMPS.
No accord given for utility...you went there? You died.
period.
Rationalize this?
I await a response.
"Vulgar blasphemy", "souls", is this a religion we are discussing?

Treblinka consisted of T1 and T2, T1 was the work camp, T2 the "death camp". So people who went there did not alway die.

Do you know that none of these camps had cremation facilities, no ovens. So we are meant to believe that the super-efficient Germans created a death camp with no cremation facilities?

Do you know that a few months after Sobibor supposedly started gassing 20,000 people a day Heinrich Himmler instructed that Sobibor transit camp, be converted into a concentration camp?

Here is Himmler's letter to that effect:


Quote:
The Reichsfuehrer-SS

RF/Bn pencilled 1674/43 geh.M.

Field Command Post, 5 July 1943

Top Secret!

10 Copies
10th Copy

I n s t r u c t i o n

1.) SS-Economics and Administrative Main Office
2.) SS-Operational Main Office
3.) Higher SS- and Police Leader East
4.) Higher SS- and Polce Leader Ostland (Eastern Countries)
5.) Higher SS- and Police Leader Russia Center
6.) Higher SS- and Police Leader Ukraine
7.) SS- and Police Leader in the District of Lubin
8.) (Chief of Anti-Terrorist Units) pencilled: 9th copy delivered at Hochwald by Ostubaf BRANDT

1. The transit camp of Sobibor in the district of Lublin is to be transformed into a concentration camp. In this concentration camp a depot for the dismantling of captured ammunition has to be set up.

2. All Higher SS- and Police Leaders are instructed to forward to this camp all captured ammunition, as far as it is not needed for the loading of captured guns in use.

3. Motals and in particular the blasting powder are to be used carefully.

4. At the same time a depot for the manufacturing of our multiple mortars or other ammunition is to be set up in this concentration camp.

signed

H. HIMMLER
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