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Old December 16th, 2013, 12:55 PM   #111

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I see holocaust denial has reared its ugly head
Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterTaut;1669708.
Do you know that none of these camps had cremation facilities, no ovens. So we are meant to believe that the super-efficient Germans created a death camp with no cremation facilities?
YES.
They are enough eyewitnesses and documentry evidence from the German side to establish beyond doubt that these locations were used as death camps

Quote:
Do you know that a few months after Sobibor supposedly started gassing 20,000 people a day Heinrich Himmler instructed that Sobibor transit camp, be converted into a concentration camp?
Question you should ask yourself, where were they being transited too.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 03:37 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterTaut View Post
Isn't it a leap to say the survivors will be actively killed?

To get a document which actually said "we must exterminate the Jews" would be a golden find but isnt that the problem, there is no such document. That is why people have to jump through hoops to say words like 'evacuate' are euphemisms for killing or gasing or whatever...
No personal interest here , and no direct or personal involvement other than maybe disgust. Forget the eloquent words and all the conversations. "...there is no such document". Really? Would people mind if we read all the "evidence", survivor testimonies, and Jewish organisations' arguments? What was the so called Wannsee Conference and what exactly was the evidence for Genocide in the Nuremberg trials ? What is all the video archive evidence? Revisionist apologists and deniers rely on "no documents" and "give me proof", but documents and proof mean little when you have information. Least of all, why would West German producer Manfred Korytowski recreate this conference where SS, the Nazi Party and the government ministries signed off on the Final Solution headed by Reinhard Heydrich for"an organizational task unparalleled in history"?

We may suspect the Wannsee Conference happened, we know about the Holocaust Research project , the testimony from Nazi officers esp. from Sobibor, and all of those plaques at erstwhile Nazi death camps: Sobibor - The Forgotten Revolt, by Thomas Toivi Blatt Some of us living in Germany have read the memorials to genocide, those memorials allowed to stand by the German government. We know how Jews teach to refute holocaust denial How to Refute Holocaust Denial | Jewish Virtual Library.

Why should we listen to all those nutz or fascist deniers out there writing hundreds nay thousands of worthless apologist words, exploiting ambiguous language and demanding evidence while they disgrace survivors and victims. Maybe we don't have to think very hard about this. Let them have their denials, let them write explanations. Drops in the ocean.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 04:29 PM   #113
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Quote:
Do you know that a few months after Sobibor supposedly started gassing 20,000 people a day Heinrich Himmler instructed that Sobibor transit camp, be converted into a concentration camp?

Here is Himmler's letter to that effect:
The camp at Sobibor began killing operations in May 1942. Himmler's letter is dated 5 July 1943, when extermination operations had largely come to an end.

But it is true that the Sobibor camp was a forced-labour camp as well as an extermination centre. While the great majority of the Polish Jews sent there were killed, a large number of the Dutch Jews sent there in the first months of 1943 were retained as a labour force, and some of them were even sent to other labour camps where a few survived to the end of the war.

From the German point of view, the advantage of retaining Dutch Jews for labour was that they were less likely to escape than Polish Jews, since they were alien to the area and did not know the local language.

It was precisely because of the existence of residual Dutch Jewish labour force that Himmler designated the Sobibor camp as a place for processing captured ammunition.

The prisoner uprising in October 1943, led by Soviet Jewish POWs, enabled the escape of almost all the prisoners, but the majority were subsequently killed, either by German patrols who hunted them down or by Polish insurgents.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 05:52 PM   #114

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterTaut View Post
Isn't it a leap to say the survivors will be actively killed?

To get a document which actually said "we must exterminate the Jews" would be a golden find but isnt that the problem, there is no such document. That is why people have to jump through hoops to say words like 'evacuate' are euphemisms for killing or gasing or whatever...
Now suppose that someone wrote statements like this about Stalin's genocides across the Soviet Union. Would you accept them, or would you label them proof of the Jewi-er, 'liberal' (the term deniers too wimpy to express the full nature of their ideas used) academic world and its biases?
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Old December 16th, 2013, 06:44 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterTaut View Post
"Vulgar blasphemy", "souls", is this a religion we are discussing?

Treblinka consisted of T1 and T2, T1 was the work camp, T2 the "death camp". So people who went there did not alway die.

Do you know that none of these camps had cremation facilities, no ovens. So we are meant to believe that the super-efficient Germans created a death camp with no cremation facilities?

Do you know that a few months after Sobibor supposedly started gassing 20,000 people a day Heinrich Himmler instructed that Sobibor transit camp, be converted into a concentration camp?

Here is Himmler's letter to that effect:
Do YOU KNOW that they burned the corpses in open pits on these sites?
Process: Dig a pit. Lay steel beams across said pit. Build a huge bonfire in the pit. Throw corpses onto beams. Feed the fire. Those that were "chosen" to survive were used to either: chop wood for the bonfire, feed the fire, or throw the corpses on the fire pit. A further point of interest is that because a large proportion of the humans "disposed of" at these facilities were not the malnourished "prototype" which one assumes as being the "typical" victim, the HUMAN FAT served as a very suitable ACCELERANT, raising the temperature to a level that would achieve total consummation of a corpse within a rather marginal timespan.
Your POV Stinks on the same magnitude as it would have STUNK for those "fortunate few" that were "the chosen ones".
You tossed up two sites that had a nominal "work program" in place.
Your points on these (Sobibor/Trebinka) are weak. We know what they were doing here during the Endlossung phase...The "Chosen" were either on corpse disposal duties (as above: "Sonderkommando") or dealing with the recovery/sorting/packaging of the vast "collection" of "personal property" that was accrued in the process.
Extemporize on any parallels at Majdanek, Belzec, Chelmno, and Maly-Trostenents? Same thing: A three month reprieve serving on a "Sonderkommando" then off to the pit. Have fun with that one...

It HAPPENED...get over it.
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Old December 17th, 2013, 01:43 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redcoat View Post
I see holocaust denial has reared its ugly head
I see reality denial has reared its ugly head! Actually you're a dish but I suppose flattery aint going to help me

Quote:
YES. They are enough eyewitnesses and documentry evidence from the German side to establish beyond doubt that these locations were used as death camps
The eyewitness evidence cannot be trusted, even holocaust promoters admit this.

What documentary evidence?

Quote:
Question you should ask yourself, where were they being transited too.
They were being transited East into the lands the Germans had won from the USSR.
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Old December 17th, 2013, 02:27 AM   #117
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Quote:
The eyewitness evidence cannot be trusted, even holocaust promoters admit this. What documentary evidence?
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URSNN5mnI2g]Die Wannseekonferenz (1984) - YouTube[/ame]

http://holocaust-history.org/short-essays/wannsee.shtml

Wannsee Protocol, January 20, 1942

The minutes of the Wannsee Conference http://www.HolocaustResearchProject.org
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Old December 17th, 2013, 09:19 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Paul View Post
No personal interest here , and no direct or personal involvement other than maybe disgust. Forget the eloquent words and all the conversations. "...there is no such document". Really? Would people mind if we read all the "evidence", survivor testimonies, and Jewish organisations' arguments? What was the so called Wannsee Conference and what exactly was the evidence for Genocide in the Nuremberg trials ? What is all the video archive evidence? Revisionist apologists and deniers rely on "no documents" and "give me proof", but documents and proof mean little when you have information. Least of all, why would West German producer Manfred Korytowski recreate this conference where SS, the Nazi Party and the government ministries signed off on the Final Solution headed by Reinhard Heydrich for"an organizational task unparalleled in history"?

We may suspect the Wannsee Conference happened, we know about the Holocaust Research project , the testimony from Nazi officers esp. from Sobibor, and all of those plaques at erstwhile Nazi death camps: Sobibor - The Forgotten Revolt, by Thomas Toivi Blatt Some of us living in Germany have read the memorials to genocide, those memorials allowed to stand by the German government. We know how Jews teach to refute holocaust denial How to Refute Holocaust Denial | Jewish Virtual Library.

Why should we listen to all those nutz or fascist deniers out there writing hundreds nay thousands of worthless apologist words, exploiting ambiguous language and demanding evidence while they disgrace survivors and victims. Maybe we don't have to think very hard about this. Let them have their denials, let them write explanations. Drops in the ocean.
Lol, you cant start off saying, "No personal interest here , and no direct or personal involvement .." and end up saying, "Why should we listen to all those nutz or fascist deniers out there...". You're displaying your virulent bias for all to see.

SS liaison to the Foreign Office Martin Franz Julius Luther (1895 - 1945) was at the Wannsee conference and wrote, ""... at the end of this war all Jews would have to leave Europe. This was an unalterable decision of the Fuehrer ...".

"A good three or four hundred years will go by before the Jews set foot again
in Europe. They'll return first of all as commercial travelers, then gradually
they'll become emboldened to settle here -- the better to exploit us…"
- Adolf Hitler - January 23, 1942, Table Talk.


"The Jews must pack up and disappear from Europe. Let them go to
Russia. Where the Jews are concerned, I'm devoid of all sense of pity."
- Adolf Hitler - January 27, 1942, Table Talk.

On July 24, 1942, the Führer confirmed this intention with pithy words:
“After finishing the war he will take the rigorous position that he will crush city after city, if the Jews would not come out and migrate to Madagascar or some other Jewish national state.” Henry Picker, Hitler’s Tischgespräche im Führerhauptquartier, Wilhelm Goldmann Verlag, Munich 1981, p. 456.

Last edited by AfterTaut; December 17th, 2013 at 10:17 AM.
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Old December 17th, 2013, 09:50 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterTaut View Post
Lol, you cant start off saying, "No personal interest here , and no direct or personal involvement .." and end up saying, "Why should we listen to all those nutz or fascist deniers out there...". You're displaying your virulent bias for all to see.

SS liaison to the Foreign Office Martin Franz Julius Luther (1895 - 1945) was at the Wannsee conference and wrote, ""... at the end of this war all Jews would have to leave Europe. This was an unalterable decision of the Fuehrer ...".

"A good three or four hundred years will go by before the Jews set foot again
in Europe. They'll return first of all as commercial travelers, then gradually
they'll become emboldened to settle here -- the better to exploit us…"
- Adolf Hitler - January 23, 1942, Table Talk.


"The Jews must pack up and disappear from Europe. Let them go to
Russia. Where the Jews are concerned, I'm devoid of all sense of pity."
- Adolf Hitler - January 27, 1942, Table Talk.

Hitler was a coward who took his own life, was thrown into a hole and burned while the Russians flew their flag high on all that he adored.
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Old December 17th, 2013, 09:54 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael mills View Post
The camp at Sobibor began killing operations in May 1942. Himmler's letter is dated 5 July 1943, when extermination operations had largely come to an end.
But the point of the letter is that Himmler wants to turn a 'transit camp' into a 'concentration camp', iow upgrading the camp; why would they even be discussing the camp in this way, if it were a death camp for the industrial extermination of people?

Quote:
But it is true that the Sobibor camp was a forced-labour camp as well as an extermination centre. While the great majority of the Polish Jews sent there were killed, a large number of the Dutch Jews sent there in the first months of 1943 were retained as a labour force, and some of them were even sent to other labour camps where a few survived to the end of the war.
Can you point to the evidence for this?
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