Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > European History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

European History European History Forum - Western and Eastern Europe including the British Isles, Scandinavia, Russia


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 18th, 2013, 04:41 PM   #141
Historian
 
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,380

why argue al the detail?

Hitler hated the Jews in a extreme way.
Hitler had no problem with mass murder.
Hitler constructed a regime with no respect for the rule of law of human rights.
Hitler put racist thugs in charge of his empire.

why was there ever a need for an order? Hitler knew it was going and and approved of it.
pugsville is offline  
Remove Ads
Old December 18th, 2013, 04:48 PM   #142
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: Pax juxta probitatem
Posts: 1,621
Blog Entries: 14

Quote:
Originally Posted by pugsville View Post
why argue al the detail?

Hitler hated the Jews in a extreme way.
Hitler had no problem with mass murder.
Hitler constructed a regime with no respect for the rule of law of human rights.
Hitler put racist thugs in charge of his empire.

why was there ever a need for an order? Hitler knew it was going and and approved of it.
Exactly. Cheerio.

Statements by Hitler and Senior Nazis Concerning Jews and Judaism
John Paul is offline  
Old December 18th, 2013, 07:30 PM   #143

Davidius's Avatar
Varlet
 
Joined: Dec 2010
From: Pillium
Posts: 4,823

Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterTaut View Post
What you have said here may be valid but you provide no quotes or reference to back it up and so it is merely your opinion.
Yes, just my opinion but one that has been formed after talking to dozens of holocaust survivors. I could quote them but as those conversations took place privately I could not verify them.
There are, however, a great many survivor testimonies on the internet. You can read some here:

Survivor testimonies

Quote:
Madagascar and Russia are both verifiable FACT, repeated by the Germans over and over in their documentation.
The stated intention to send Jews to Madagascar and Russia for resettlement may be documented fact. Strangely enough there are no documents to show that any of them were ever sent, or arrived.
Saying isn't the same as doing and the Nazis were not averse to outright lies in their propaganda.

I find your poor attempts at historical revision in the cause of holocaust denial utterly repellent. I also abhor the fact that any sources you find inconvenient are dismissed out of hand whilst your own right wing revisionist sources are endorsed uncritically. That's not just deficient debate, that's deficient humanity.

I take my leave of you with the hope that one day your callous ignorance may be rectified.
Davidius is offline  
Old December 19th, 2013, 02:02 AM   #144
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2013
From: Bleiburg
Posts: 167

Quote:
Originally Posted by pugsville View Post
why argue al the detail?

Hitler hated the Jews in a extreme way.
Hitler had no problem with mass murder.
Hitler constructed a regime with no respect for the rule of law of human rights.
Hitler put racist thugs in charge of his empire.

why was there ever a need for an order? Hitler knew it was going and and approved of it.
You argue the detail because you're on a history site, not a religious one.

Lots of people, including Churchill, hated the Jews, it was the fashion. The Jews were hated then the way Muslims are hated and vilified today.

Leaders of countries tend to justify whatever destruction their policies bring, look at Blair and Bush in recent times.

Racist thugs are usually in charge of empires, it goes with the territory.

There is no EVIDENCE he knew, you need something to support your opinions otherwise they are so much flim-flam.
AfterTaut is offline  
Old December 19th, 2013, 02:24 AM   #145
Dilettante
 
Joined: Sep 2013
From: Wirral
Posts: 3,911

Quote:
Originally Posted by pugsville View Post
why argue al the detail?

Hitler hated the Jews in a extreme way.
Hitler had no problem with mass murder.
Hitler constructed a regime with no respect for the rule of law of human rights.
Hitler put racist thugs in charge of his empire.

why was there ever a need for an order? Hitler knew it was going and and approved of it.
Well indeed. To be very simplistic there were lots of Jews in Central/Eastern Europe in the 1930s but there weren't many left by 1945. Takes some explaining.
GogLais is offline  
Old December 19th, 2013, 02:28 AM   #146
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2013
From: Bleiburg
Posts: 167

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidius View Post
Yes, just my opinion but one that has been formed after talking to dozens of holocaust survivors. I could quote them but as those conversations took place privately I could not verify them.
There are, however, a great many survivor testimonies on the internet. You can read some here:

Survivor testimonies

The stated intention to send Jews to Madagascar and Russia for resettlement may be documented fact. Strangely enough there are no documents to show that any of them were ever sent, or arrived.
Saying isn't the same as doing and the Nazis were not averse to outright lies in their propaganda.

I find your poor attempts at historical revision in the cause of holocaust denial utterly repellent. I also abhor the fact that any sources you find inconvenient are dismissed out of hand whilst your own right wing revisionist sources are endorsed uncritically. That's not just deficient debate, that's deficient humanity.

I take my leave of you with the hope that one day your callous ignorance may be rectified.
Witness evidence cannot be trusted, that is not me saying that, that is holocaust historians and people like Primo Levi...

Ever hear of Irene Zisblatt: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvtLQviQRqo]Spielberg's Holocaust Hoaxeress - Irene Weisberg Zisblatt - YouTube[/ame]

Ever hear of Herman Rosenblatt: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j30sWIOMIak]Holocaust faker explains himself . - YouTube[/ame]

Witness statements are worthless
"For the scientific historian a witness statement does not represent real history. It is an object of history. A witness statement counts for little, many witnesses' statements count for no more, if there is no solid document to support them. One could say without much exaggeration, the principle of scientific historiography is, No paper(s), no proven facts."
- Jacques Baynac, Sept 3, 1997.

No Jews were sent to Madagascar but Jews were sent East.
AfterTaut is offline  
Old December 19th, 2013, 03:43 AM   #147
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2013
From: Bleiburg
Posts: 167

Quote:
Originally Posted by GogLais View Post
Well indeed. To be very simplistic there were lots of Jews in Central/Eastern Europe in the 1930s but there weren't many left by 1945. Takes some explaining.
Based on what?

Posters here call themselves "academic", "historian" etc but few seem to have much info on the holocaust and few have any references/sources/quotes that we can discuss.

Jews were emigrating to the US throughout the 30s and 40s, they also began the exodus to Palestine. Hundreds of thousands were moved East by the Germans and many settled there.
AfterTaut is offline  
Old December 19th, 2013, 06:09 AM   #148
Dilettante
 
Joined: Sep 2013
From: Wirral
Posts: 3,911

Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterTaut View Post
Based on what?

Posters here call themselves "academic", "historian" etc but few seem to have much info on the holocaust and few have any references/sources/quotes that we can discuss.

Jews were emigrating to the US throughout the 30s and 40s, they also began the exodus to Palestine. Hundreds of thousands were moved East by the Germans and many settled there.
The contrary argument has been put better by others than I can. I think I'll find someone to debate with whether the earth is flat or if the moon is made of green cheese.
GogLais is offline  
Old December 19th, 2013, 08:25 AM   #149
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2013
From: Bleiburg
Posts: 167

Quote:
Originally Posted by GogLais View Post
The contrary argument has been put better by others than I can. I think I'll find someone to debate with whether the earth is flat or if the moon is made of green cheese.
Would you not prefer to live in the real world?
AfterTaut is offline  
Old December 19th, 2013, 12:32 PM   #150
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Jan 2013
From: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 5,835

Quote:
The stated intention to send Jews to Madagascar and Russia for resettlement may be documented fact. Strangely enough there are no documents to show that any of them were ever sent, or arrived.
No Jews were ever sent to Madagascar because Germany never had control over that island.

The Madagascar Plan was contingent on an end to the war between Britain and Germany, and British co-operation with Germany and France in the transportation of European Jews to Madagascar and their settlement there. As long as the war continued, and the Royal Navy controlled the sea-lanes, there was no way of shipping Jews anywhere.

However, German Jews were indeed deported to Riga and Minsk in occupied Soviet territory, between November 1941 and February 1942, and housed in the ghettos there.

Practically all the Jews sent to Minsk perished or were killed before the end of the war, there being only a handful of survivors. However, a considerable number of the Jews sent to Riga survived until the summer of 1944, when they were evacuated by sea to Germany along with the German military personnel and civilians retreating from Latvia. On arrival in Germany they were held in camps such as Stutthof.

That is one of the paradoxical elements in the German treatment of the Jews under their control during the Second World War; why the Germans expended the effort to bring Jewish prisoners back from Latvia rather than just kill them on the spot, as they did in many other locations in the East before they retreated.

In general, the Germans treated German Jews relatively better than Eastern Jews, ie the Jews of Poland and the Soviet Union, tending to preserve them rather than kill them out of hand.

Indeed, on 1 December 1941 the HSSPF-Nord Russland, Fritz Jeckeln, was severely reprimanded by Himmler for having executed some deported German Jews in Riga, contrary to orders, and was warned he would be punished if he did it again.

And in fact he did not do it again. The deported German Jews were housed in the Riga Ghetto.
michael mills is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > European History

Tags
commander, hitler, jewish, ordered, protected, report, war



Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Master and Commander: The Far Side Of The World SilverWolf History in Films and on Television 34 June 7th, 2014 04:28 PM
Hitler jewish himself? SudaniMujahid European History 8 December 4th, 2010 05:23 PM
Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles diddyriddick War and Military History 6 December 1st, 2010 01:25 PM
Official: KGB chief ordered Hitler's remains destroyed Fluffybunny War and Military History 2 December 15th, 2009 06:52 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.