Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > European History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

European History European History Forum - Western and Eastern Europe including the British Isles, Scandinavia, Russia


Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old February 21st, 2015, 08:46 AM   #201
Scholar
 
Joined: Dec 2014
From: EU
Posts: 559

History of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Well, a tricky question but I think I've come to the conclusion and that is - there is no such thing as a separate Bosnian nationality, it's either Croat or Serb.

1. Bogomilised Serb
2. Bogomilised Croat
3. Islamized Serb
4. Islamized Croat
5. Orthodox Serb
6. Orthodox Croat
7. Catholic Serb
8. Catholic Croat
9. Atheist Serb (may also be identified as Yugoslav)
10. Atheist Croat (may also be identified as Yugoslav)

Of course this is my amateur opinion and if someone thinks I'm wrong here please present your argument.

Last edited by Verbar; February 21st, 2015 at 09:59 AM.
Verbar is offline  
Remove Ads
Old February 21st, 2015, 09:12 AM   #202

Xilaw's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2015
From: Bosnia and Herzegovina
Posts: 1,507

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verbar View Post
History of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Well, a tricky question but I think I've come to the conclusion and that is - there is no such thing as a separate Bosnian nationality, it's either a Croat or Serb.

1. Bogomilised Serb
2. Bogomilised Croat
3. Islamized Serb
4. Islamized Croat
5. Orthodox Serb
6. Orthodox Croat
7. Catholic Serb
8. Catholic Croat
9. Atheist Serb (may also be identified as Yugoslav)
10. Atheist Croat (may also be identified as Yugoslav)

If anyone think I'm wrong here please present your argument.
That's pretty much what we're being taught in Serbian schools. Croats too, most likely. The only difference is who was the majority. Bosniaks, on the other hand, are taught that there were no Serbs or Croats until recently and that everyone in that territory was Bosniak or "Good Bosnian" as some medieval documents suggest was the name of the people
living in Medieval Bosnia.

Of course, it's disputed whether it was an ethnic or purely geographical denomination. The identity of these people is extremely politicized and is strongly influenced by modern state of mind of Balkans, which is that religion tells you which nationality you are. It's a false premise on so many levels but it never stops people from using it as some sort of evidence.

As far as Serbo-Croatian teaching goes, my two cents are - there is no definite border between the two tribes that settled Bosnia. It is suggested that the border is rivers Cetina in the south and Vrbas (I think?) in the north. These are allegedly the natural borders that divide the bulk of Croat tribes and Serb tribes, but it's important to know that it was not a sharp transition and that the region around those rivers and even further away was highly mixed. When these ethnic borders are taken into consideration the earliest Bosnian state is technically formed out of the ethnically Serbian population, of course as the state expanded it included more and more Croats as well.
Herzegovina (Hum/Zahumlia), in particular, was for a long time Serbian by majority as well as southern Dalmatia. The ethno-genesis didn't change as much as the national identity of the people, who now see themselves Croat purely based on Catholic religion.

Interesting bit of information is that the population of Dubrovnik in the late 19th and early 20th century had a lot of people declaring themselves Serbian. Even the language they spoke was dubbed Serbian by them and there were some weekly newspapers that promoted Serbian identity that were written by Catholic Serbs from Dubrovnik. The newspapers were banned by the Austrians which crippled the Serbian awakening among the locals in the long run. Yugoslav bombing of the city during last war didn't help either, though by this point the Croat identity was already deeply rooted. My mother watched some Croatian TV show that is set in Dubrovnik and the thing that struck me the most was the speech. They have a really strange mix of Montenegrin ijekavica and the Dalmatian ikavica. All in all, it is a Shtokavian dialect.
Xilaw is offline  
Old February 21st, 2015, 09:36 AM   #203

Shtajerc's Avatar
last real Windischer
 
Joined: Jul 2014
From: Lower Styria, Slovenia
Posts: 5,832

Since others did, I'd like to add my view about this too, if you don't mind.

If you look at the ethnic map of former Yugoslavia you can cee that Croats are distributed in a rather odd way. Could one asume that they once filled the space in Bosnia (between Slavonia and Hercegovina and Dalmatia) but were later turned into Islam or assimilated by Serb settlers from Serbia and eastern Bosnia? I don't say they had to necessarily be Croats, but some group/s that later identified as Croat due to being Catholic, like Orthodox people identified as Serbian or so.

Click the image to open in full size.

It's all so weird. What were Šokci before they moved to Slavonia and Vojvodina? I know they today feel Croatian but are there any records of them when they still lived in Bosnia? They were Catholic all the time - they didn't convert from Orthodox to Catholic?

I know Štokavian was brought to Slavonia later by people who fled from Turks, before Kajkavian was spoken in most of it. Now, what was spoken in Bosnia before all those Serbs moved there from Kosovo and Serbia?

Last edited by Shtajerc; February 21st, 2015 at 09:42 AM.
Shtajerc is offline  
Old February 21st, 2015, 10:00 AM   #204

Xilaw's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2015
From: Bosnia and Herzegovina
Posts: 1,507

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shtajerc View Post
If you look at the ethnic map of former Yugoslavia you can cee that Croats are distributed in a rather odd way. Could one asume that they once filled the space in Bosnia (between Slavonia and Hercegovina and Dalmatia) but were later turned into Islam or assimilated by Serb settlers from Serbia and eastern Bosnia? I don't say they had to necessarily be Croats, but some group/s that later identified as Croat due to being Catholic, like Orthodox people identified as Serbian or so.
Well, first thing's first. The shape of modern Croatia should not be used for such assumptions. The borders of modern day Croatia are based on the people living there, which are Catholic Slavs speaking Serbo-Croatian. The ethnic background of these people is a matter of dispute, specifically those in southern Dalmatia and Herzegovina. If you put those in the Serbian ethnos and the Serbs beyond the Vrbas and Cetina rivers in the Croatian one you get much more natural ethnic borders.

Quote:
I know Štokavian was brought to Slavonia later by people who fled from Turks, before Kajkavian was spoken in most of it. Now, what was spoken in Bosnia before all those Serbs moved there from Kosovo and Serbia?
According to the Bosniak Wiki:
" Na jezičkodijalektnoj razini, sadašnja Bosna i Hercegovina je od 11. i 12. do 15. vijeka pretežno štokavsko područje, osim krajnjeg zapada (Bihać i Pounje), koja su zone čakavskog narječja."

Basically, they used the same Shtokavian dialect in the regions I earlier described as part of the Serbian ethnos, while Chakavian was spoken in the west, in other words the one that corresponds to Croatian ethnic territory.

You can find it more detailed here: Historijski pregled jezika u Bosni i Hercegovini - Wikipedia

I chose their Wiki to sound as least biased. Of course, I could probably look for some other source if you like, but this one was the easiest to find. The only problematic thing is that I don't see an actual source to that sentence so perhaps take it with a grain of salt.
Xilaw is offline  
Old February 21st, 2015, 10:17 AM   #205

Shtajerc's Avatar
last real Windischer
 
Joined: Jul 2014
From: Lower Styria, Slovenia
Posts: 5,832

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xilaw View Post
Well, first thing's first. The shape of modern Croatia should not be used for such assumptions. The borders of modern day Croatia are based on the people living there, which are Catholic Slavs speaking Serbo-Croatian. The ethnic background of these people is a matter of dispute, specifically those in southern Dalmatia and Herzegovina. If you put those in the Serbian ethnos and the Serbs beyond the Vrbas and Cetina rivers in the Croatian one you get much more natural ethnic borders.
I don't use the modern shape of Croatia for nothing. I looked at the ethnic distribution of Croats in Croatian and Bosnia. To me it looks like it has a hole in it, filled with Serbian settlers and Bosniaks. But nevermind, it's just a thing in my head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xilaw View Post
According to the Bosniak Wiki:
" Na jezičkodijalektnoj razini, sadašnja Bosna i Hercegovina je od 11. i 12. do 15. vijeka pretežno štokavsko područje, osim krajnjeg zapada (Bihać i Pounje), koja su zone čakavskog narječja."

Basically, they used the same Shtokavian dialect in the regions I earlier described as part of the Serbian ethnos, while Chakavian was spoken in the west, in other words the one that corresponds to Croatian ethnic territory.

You can find it more detailed here: Historijski pregled jezika u Bosni i Hercegovini - Wikipedia

I chose their Wiki to sound as least biased. Of course, I could probably look for some other source if you like, but this one was the easiest to find. The only problematic thing is that I don't see an actual source to that sentence so perhaps take it with a grain of salt.
Thank you. Interesting. I didn't know Čakavian was spoken too.

All those dialect, language, religion, ethnicity and other things just don't make that much sense. It's so damn bloody complicated. Like bloody ancient aliens on History Channel. I rather don't think about it, it just raises question after question. Brain > kabuuuš
Shtajerc is offline  
Old February 21st, 2015, 10:20 AM   #206

Xilaw's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2015
From: Bosnia and Herzegovina
Posts: 1,507

Yeah, history, although interesting can make one over-think it. Personally I feel I've been cursed with the wish to know more about it
Xilaw is offline  
Old February 21st, 2015, 10:28 AM   #207

Shtajerc's Avatar
last real Windischer
 
Joined: Jul 2014
From: Lower Styria, Slovenia
Posts: 5,832

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xilaw View Post
Yeah, history, although interesting can make one over-think it. Personally I feel I've been cursed with the wish to know more about it
Tell me about it, I had that today twice. First I did some reading about the rain theory in connection with the age of the Sphinx in Giza, which fascinates me a lot, then this Bosnia stuff, now I'm already wondering why Czechs could survive in Croatia as a minority while they all got assimilated in Slovenia, though there were many who came as glass workers and such. We Styrians even call you "čeh", which means clumsy and stupid. No Czechs in sight though even A. T. Linhart was halfway Czech.
Shtajerc is offline  
Old February 21st, 2015, 10:35 AM   #208

Xilaw's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2015
From: Bosnia and Herzegovina
Posts: 1,507

There are Polish and Ukrainian small societies in Bosnia, even. I dated a Ukrainian girl from my home town, in fact. It's really strange that Slavic minorities never assimilated into the larger Slavic nations.
I suppose the language kind of plays a big role. Czech is somewhat close to Slovenian, right? At least to me it sounds like. Maybe not so much today, but few centuries back I'd imagine it was a lot closer as a consequence of Samo's Kingdom. Many of those minorities keep speaking their own language at home which essentially is what keeps their identity intact. In Slovenia, where Czech was somewhat close to Slovene, more people dropped their own language and eventually assimilated.

That's a theory. How far am I off, now?
Xilaw is offline  
Old February 21st, 2015, 10:51 AM   #209
Scholar
 
Joined: Dec 2014
From: EU
Posts: 559

delete

Last edited by Verbar; February 21st, 2015 at 11:11 AM.
Verbar is offline  
Old February 21st, 2015, 10:55 AM   #210

Shtajerc's Avatar
last real Windischer
 
Joined: Jul 2014
From: Lower Styria, Slovenia
Posts: 5,832

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xilaw View Post
There are Polish and Ukrainian small societies in Bosnia, even. I dated a Ukrainian girl from my home town, in fact. It's really strange that Slavic minorities never assimilated into the larger Slavic nations.
I suppose the language kind of plays a big role. Czech is somewhat close to Slovenian, right? At least to me it sounds like. Maybe not so much today, but few centuries back I'd imagine it was a lot closer as a consequence of Samo's Kingdom. Many of those minorities keep speaking their own language at home which essentially is what keeps their identity intact. In Slovenia, where Czech was somewhat close to Slovene, more people dropped their own language and eventually assimilated.

That's a theory. How far am I off, now?
Really, I didn't know you had that in Bosnia. Never came across any on my trips, I guess they're not numerous? We have some Ukrainians here too though they're really few and mostly women - wives of truckers or ladies of the night mostly ...

Yeah, we like to say how Slovene has West Slavic influences and all (which it does, no doubt), but we can't really understand much, except for a word here and there. There are certain similarities but without additional knowledge of the language you are pretty clueless. There are numerous false friends (otrok means "kid" in Slovene but "slave" in Czech, chlapec is boy in Czech while hlapes is servant in Slovene, zachod is toilet in Czech, zahod is west in Slovene, užásne is nice or good in Czech while you know what užasno means in your language, Czech že is equal to our da and our že is equal to their už). It's a damn mess. Also, Slovene from a few hundred years is closer to Croatian than today. I think it doesn't look like anything West Slavic since some 13th century, except for some dialects in Austrian Carinthia and Gorenjsko.

Eastern Styria and Prekmurje was also part of Great Moravia. Where I live, the land was originally a march of Carniola, only later added to Styria. I guess that's why we speak quite normal - not as weird as eastern Styrians yet nothing like Carniolans, thank God.

My only clue is that they didn't settle in their own villages here like in Croatia or didn't come with whole families. I know most of the glass making knowledge was brought by their masters. If you look at Uskoki in Bela Krajina, they settled all in one area and though they live here for several hundred years, the dialects there used to sound more Croatian than Slovene, today not that much anymore.
Shtajerc is offline  
Closed Thread

  Historum > World History Forum > European History

Tags
bosnia, herzegovina



Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Historians Of Yugoslavia/Serbia/Croatia/Macedonia/Bosnia/Slovenia/Montenegro? Yu_Višeslav European History 36 April 21st, 2015 02:07 AM
Social history dominating political history? Pancho35 General History 59 August 22nd, 2013 07:37 AM
Huns In Bosnia? cyprusx European History 29 September 18th, 2012 02:48 PM
The History of Wallasey - A Small Suburb - With a Large History Tony Franks-Buckley History Book Reviews 0 July 8th, 2012 08:02 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.