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Old November 22nd, 2012, 07:44 PM   #341

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Originally Posted by beorna View Post
You fail to see the difference between evolving an own and seperate identity and the will to run a state of one's own. germans existed for 230 years in sovereign states and as you know was there a German state first in 1870, allthough the term German existed since several hundreds of years. AFAIK did many Ukrainians did not see themselves as citizens of the SU and had an own common identity even before.
I am ethnic Ukranian and I confirm that everywhere but the Western part of Galicia had no negative feelings towards Russia or the USSR. Everyone from Kiev to Odessa to Donetsk indeed regarded ourselves as part of a greater Soviet people, and specifically as brotherly nations of Russia and Byelorussia in terms of language and culture.

It is nothing to do with Russification. The only "Russification" was a Russian language course in school. It would be disaster if we lived in one country and nobody could speak a common language.

In fact, the Soviet government pursued the opposite course- korenizaciya, or nativization, strengthened Ukranian culture and language, as well as the culture and language and identity of other Soviet nations, all as part of a greater Soviet country striving for socialism.

Korenizatsiya Korenizatsiya

Unless USSR is restored, however, most Ukranians do not want to be part of Russia, as it is a total disaster now, with the criminal government totally corrupt and immoral, concerned only about enriching itself.

Last edited by Koba; November 22nd, 2012 at 08:02 PM.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 08:16 PM   #342

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Xenophobia is belief that your nation is the best and blameless. This is not my belief. Try me

Xenophobia is also irrational fear of and hostility towards members of other nations. Neither I nor most Poles I know are afraid of the Russian people, nor are we hostile towards you. On the contrary, there's a general feeling you had a very rotten time during the war and the communist times and this is something which (at least in in Polish eyes) creates a powerful bond between our nations.
You are wrong. Do you accept that Poland committed aggression in 1920 and took illegally lands of Byelorussia and Ukraine?

No, because Poles constantly whine about how Soviets and Nazis "colluded" to "dismember" Polish state, even though there was almost no Poles in the areas taken by Soviets.

Click the image to open in full size.

Or how about the thousands of Soviet POWs neglected and left to die, by the tens of thousands, in Polish camps, put in terrible conditions in the freezing cold in the 1920's? I guess it was Stalin responsible for this, like always.

Poles view Russians as aggressors, when it was they themselves who committed no small share of crimes, yet you deny it and falsify history to suit your own conceptions.

Also, you are wrong again- Soviet people did not "suffer" under Communism. People are living far worse now than even under the late Brezhnev. Wonders of "capitalism" and "democracy" completely destroyed education, health-care, infrastructure, and sold the country to criminals.

This is absurd statement- go to Russia or Ukraine (not Galicia) and ask anyone on the street what they think about USSR- you will get overwhelmingly positive answers.

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Precisely what I said, neither we nor Russia nor any other unfortunate member of the "Soviet block" ever produced anything that could be remotely described as good-quality.
Typical Polish lie. USSR products were much sturdier and more reliable than capitalist ones, because there was no planned obsolescence. USSR vacuum cleaners have actually become very expensive in Russia, Ukraine today, because even though they were made in the '70s, they still work today and do not break every so often like capitalist ones.

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All I'm saying is what sense fixing one's imperial gaze on the skies when there's so much mess to clean up down below.

I understand you point out launching a man into space as a grand success of Soviet technology. The current Russian government seems to be repeating the pattern - pumping petrodollars into such grandiose schemes (and the army of course). I know it's supposed to stiimulate scientific research and all that
But pouring all resources into status-building projects (setting up hot-house naukograds in a wilderness of poverty and backwardness) can't replace uniform, sustainable development of the entire country.
Weak infrastracture, vast expanses of backwardness and poverty spotted by a few glitzy cities - is a typical Third-country pattern. There's a direct link between these huge undeveloped teritories and the eternal Russian autocracy. I read an interview with Richard Pipes - he says democracy in Russia is bunk, what it needs is another 100 years of enlightened autocracy - perhaps then something might just possibly change. He's probably right, what do you think? He also remarked that if Washington disappeared from the face of the earth tomorrow, the United States would easily survive, because of the strongly developed local self-government. If the Kremlin collapsed Russia would immediately disintegrate - like an anthill when you remove the ant queen-mother.
Funny how Richard Pipes also wrote an article in which Russian opinion on the "horrific" Soviet past is shown:

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According to Yale Lecturer Richard Pipes, 74% of Russians surveyed for his 2005 book regret the demise of the Soviet Union and believe life was better under Communism.

78% of respondents in a 2003 survey said that democracy is a facade for a government controlled by rich and powerful cliques. Only 22% expressed a preference for democracy; 53% disliked it.

74% of Russians regret the Soviet Union's passing. Only 12% regard the post-communist regime as "legitimate". In an October 2003 survey they were asked how they would react to a Communist coup: 23% would actively support it, 19 would collaborate, only 10% would actively resist.

Statistics taken from "Flight from Freedom: What Russians Think and Want" by Richard Pipes, published in the May/June 2004 issue of Foreign Affairs
I guess they must be slaves or subhumans to think in such a way, right?

Last edited by Koba; November 22nd, 2012 at 08:42 PM.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 10:30 PM   #343
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF_fOHjWJMo
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 11:10 PM   #344

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Wow. Thank you for enlightening me. That poorly made propaganda movie with scary music completely changed my view of the Soviet Union and of the Stalin period. All the information I have gotten from interacting at length with relatives and friends' relatives who actually lived during that time, from doctors to workers to peasants, that overwhelmingly painted the Stalin period in a positive light, as a time of great enthusiasm and progress, was totally invalidated by a worthless propaganda film based on no evidence whatsoever.
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Old May 31st, 2013, 08:17 PM   #345

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Because there is too bad self-government in Russia. All regions feed Moscov.
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Old May 31st, 2013, 09:17 PM   #346

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Because there is too bad self-government in Russia. All regions feed Moscov.
1) It's somewhat biased formulation even though I understand what you mean and 2) there are historical reasons why so. Russia is not USA.

Besides, how would you explain that regional corruption is on mich higher level than federal one? Why Vladivostok, for example, has been being so much misfortunate in past?
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Old May 31st, 2013, 11:20 PM   #347
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Russia is not underdeveloped relative to Western Europe more so than any other nation of Eastern Europe. Its GDP PPP per capita was $22,000 in 2011, higher than Poland's $21,000 and significantly higher than nations such as Romania and Bulgaria $15,000 - $16,000. At current rates of convergence, Russia will equal the EU in per capita income by 2025 and with its high levels of human capital, Russia is destined to become a nation with a high level of per capita output, a fact that no amount of anti - Russian propaganda can change.
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Old June 1st, 2013, 05:34 AM   #348

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It's because Russia wound up on the opposite version of the legacy of expansion. The state became too big for its own good to develop certain vital types of governmental infrastructure and never did develop others. Russia also had the misfortune around the late 19th/early 20th Century to have a sequence of incompetent rulers unwilling to reform in certain vital ways and who kicked the can down the road too late to resolve certain vital issues. The Soviet era began on the bad footing of civil war and political collapse and was hurt even worse by Stalin's brutality.

The biggest single failure common to the Romanov and Soviet eras was an over-emphasis on military power and a neglect of civilian infrastructure and a basis for it.
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Old June 1st, 2013, 06:13 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Koba View Post
Wow. Thank you for enlightening me. That poorly made propaganda movie with scary music completely changed my view of the Soviet Union and of the Stalin period. All the information I have gotten from interacting at length with relatives and friends' relatives who actually lived during that time, from doctors to workers to peasants, that overwhelmingly painted the Stalin period in a positive light, as a time of great enthusiasm and progress, was totally invalidated by a worthless propaganda film based on no evidence whatsoever.
The democracy in the former communist state is hard to transform over night in western democracy and prosperity. Without communism between 1945 and 1990 for sure every countries that had a communism regime should have been better today. See the difference between West and Est Germany between 1945 and 1989 !

Ukraine has part of Bassarabia like Buceag and North Bassarabia that didn't belong to them but to URSS that annexed Bassarabia with a population of 90% romanains...and in that part of the world 300.000 romanians were deported all over Ukraine and Siberia. This was and is a tragedy.
If you want to see the bulshit of communism regim that is still alive search Transnistria on google.

Ukraine could be split a part to unite with Russia for people like you to live after your "glorios past" a part to remain Ukraine and be part of EU.

Romanians from Ukraine very poor that speak romanain but don't know they are romanians and almost nothing about Romania..in present day!

Communism soviet past = Evil

Last edited by Dany; June 1st, 2013 at 06:35 AM.
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Old June 1st, 2013, 07:17 AM   #350

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Originally Posted by Putzi View Post
1) It's somewhat biased formulation even though I understand what you mean and 2) there are historical reasons why so. Russia is not USA.

Besides, how would you explain that regional corruption is on mich higher level than federal one? Why Vladivostok, for example, has been being so much misfortunate in past?
2) Yes, historical reasons. Since long ago there is a corrupt regime my country. And fundamentally nothing changed to this day. If you mean such factors as constant wars and other events one can say that about any country.

I bad understood the last part of your massage.
So Vladivostok (as any other city) has been being so much misfortunate in past because it is just a province.
or what did you mean?
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