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Old October 11th, 2012, 03:25 PM   #51
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I do not want to sound rude but while Poland might have somehow better bargaining power vis a vis some European countries, you act like pet dog when it comes to Washington. Washington control us directly, we do not have to go to Warsaw to get orders.
There is an element of truth to what you stated regarding good connection with the White House. But, it's not all that, because self determination is authentic among the people of the nation, so, it is still the people who can change that situation using the tenets of democracy and capitalism as a tool towards progress. Develop economy of former colonies like Singapore or South Korea is not something that's exclusive to them.
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Old October 11th, 2012, 03:30 PM   #52

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Just take a look at South Korea and Japan.
I cracked at that point. Democracy in S.Korea and Singapore, you say? Zero corruption in Japan?

I dont have anything against Japan and Korea, but their success is due to their national character first and foremost, their titanic efforts, and such nuance that their elites obviously were not that much of national traitors but also provided their people with some real leadership during tough era, despite all other "side effects" of this.

And still, despite all that progress, Japan remains to a rather big extent puppet of USA.
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Old October 11th, 2012, 03:32 PM   #53
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Come on, "nobody asked you" argument again? Nobody asked us to "join" Soviet empire. Nobody asked Indians to get colonized by Brits. Is that how Belgium colonized Congo? Your monarch send embassy thee saying will you please become our colony?

As for Washington, may be you can tell us how much is Western Europe colony of USA (and I ask it sincerely)? For what I see, US and European oligarchy is one and the same group. Or class if you want. As for colonization of post socialistic countries Western Europe and USA worked hand in hand. And again, by that I do not mean you or common Western citizens. But it is not my fault that your oligarchy is grown all through your official government.

As for cooperation of small countries inside EU I did not see much until now. Problem is, our political representations are corrupt. To cooperate on common interests they would need to represent our interests in the first place. Which they are largely not. They represent in the first place Western oligarchy just like your own. They are essentially in the same bag.
yeah, and the trouble is the leaders of developing nations are also attracted to the immediate cash, so there goes the corruption. I think it has something to do with authentic patriotism that can change that, but, with the way the corruption is going on, I highly doubt if there will be some progress in the next 50 years. For sure there will be progress but not in our lifetime.
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Old October 11th, 2012, 03:37 PM   #54
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I'd say if they're colonies, they're pretty useless as such. Not worth the bother.
We clearly were and still are worth bother. Those are Swedish banks who are still plundering Latvia, no matter how bad its there.

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Except calling them "colonies" will just cheapen the concept for when it might actually be appropriate.
As I said, colonies in neo-colonial sense, not classical one.

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And there might be aspects of the situation where a Soviet hegemon was replaced by a US/EU hegemon. Except I'd say the Soviet hegemon 1) based it's claim as such on a pretty outright threat, and even occasional use, of military force against its post-WWII satellites, which it definitely still remains to be seen if the US/EU etc. would even attempt (much as some who dislike them would be wont to see them do that)
West already used violence to bring Yugoslavia in to line. Yugoslavia independent on USSR and when USSR collapsed and soviet elites handled Eastern Europe to Washington, Yugoslavia naturally was not part of the deal. Soviets were not controlling it. And as Yugoslav elites proved to be defiant, it had to be done by force.

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and 2) the Soviets in the end actually abdicated from their hegemon status, and dropped their Warsaw Pact satellites, to do as they pleased.
Soviets certainly did not left their Warsaw pact satellites to do as they please. They were handled directly to Washington. There newer was any freedom of choice for these countries.

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What you get in a hegemonic system, and certainly as it has developed in Europe after WWII, is a situation where the dominant power actively seeks out, supports, and works with such politically influential groups within smaller nations that share their values, and are willing to play ball with them. That's what the US did after 1945, and the EU did after 1989. It becomes a shared project between hegemonic power and dominated state. After 1989 the offer was capitalist market economy, and representative democracy.
Sure and that is what USSR did in 1945-48. Somehow however it was evil for doing so. Sounds like double standard.

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The first structures the workings of the economy, the second the political system, and as a shared conviction between hegemon and his local allies, market economy should ensure wealth, and representative democracy political legitimacy of the situation.
All what should be ensured is that resources and wealth float in the right direction. From colonies to hegemon.

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In the end what we end up with is a situation where a hegemonic order is not a matter of coercion and imposition from outside, but a kind of co-production between the hegemonic power, and the groups within a society that have allied themselves to it. A "co-production" really is a pretty decent way of putting it.
That is pretty much status of any colony, including those classical ones. Colonial power always, or nearly always struck deal with "groups within". That does not make it however any less imposed from outside. When Warsaw pact countries on the order from Moscow invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968 they did it on invitation of "groups within".

There is always somebody willing to cooperate and sell his countrymen for his own profit.

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So, a hegemonic situation, and Slovakia MIGHT, and it's still a biiiiig stretch, be some kind of satellite. To whom is pretty damn unclear however (which means both colony and satellite are really bogus claims).
To Washington and its allies in Europe. To what extend is relation between Washington and its Western European counterparts partnership or hegemony I do not know. I guess it is later.

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It has however clearly adapted and aligned itself with the current hegemonic order in Europe. But in that, enough Slovakians, with enough national influence, have been instrumental to bring it about.
Same you can say about our relation with our former "hegemon" USSR.

To clarify, I am not naive to think that countries act other than in self interest. However that is not what they say openly. Few people understood it in 1989 here. We really believed that West came as friends and we are going to build Europe as equal partners. USA was idealized to nearly comical proportions. We wieved them as some kind of force of good. However naive that might sound. Result is that we were completely unprepared for what came then. And what came was basically attack on our economy and political independence. Result is that we found out, that people which came with friendly smiles on their faces shaking hands took over our house once we invited them inside.
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Old October 11th, 2012, 03:37 PM   #55
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I cracked at that point. Democracy in S.Korea and Singapore, you say? Zero corruption in Japan?

I dont have anything against Japan and Korea, but their success is due to their national character first and foremost, their titanic efforts, and such nuance that their elites obviously were not that much of national traitors.

And still, despite all that progress, Japan remains to a rather big extent puppet of USA.
Yeah, I am fully aware of such fact of life regaring the existence of corruption and seemingly lack of freedom of their people in those nations, though they're not the same as those which are in China or former Soviet Union.

Indeed, those nations are puppets, but the fact is their citizens have better living conditions than the average American as of the moment. So what's the problem with being a puppet if it works for them? It is practicality of which that is important. They don't have to spend so much for military expenditures to protect their land because the world police is there for the rescue and they have huge investment to them, that it is a must to protect them. I do not see any problem with that, and the fact is they're able to create a better nation because as you stated that is attributable to their national charater, ergo, their own people is the primary reason for their progress. Nice connection with Uncle Sam is for sure a factor.
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Old October 11th, 2012, 03:38 PM   #56
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It's normal that multi-national companies make different regional products for the same international brand. Worse quality is something different of course.

What are the examples?
I do not remember it just from my memory but I will try to search for examples. Or I will ask my friend once again.
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Old October 11th, 2012, 03:43 PM   #57
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^you are so correct about that Arras, because during the 90's cars which are manufactured for developing nations have diffferent specs as compared to those which are produced in develop nations and that starts with air bags and abs. I'm glad that is no longer true today.
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Old October 11th, 2012, 03:46 PM   #58
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Arras, I do agree with you regarding the exploitation of the West over the weaker state, and that is a fact of life that the people in this world must face and live with.
True, but then there is however difference between what is claimed and what is really done. People do not expect to be exploited as a result. It is as if two teams were playing the football match and one team would not respect rules of the game. Without letting it know to other team which would still play by the rules. It is extremely unfair game.

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Please take note that the exploitation by the elite over the massess is not only true with developing nations or with the former Eastern Block, but such is also experience by the average Americans, British, Germans or French.
I am aware of that.
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Old October 11th, 2012, 03:54 PM   #59
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^Oh that unfairness is the result of ignorance of the masses of the real politics. It is a sad fact of life, but, the strong always prevail over the weak.
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Old October 11th, 2012, 03:59 PM   #60
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Don't get me wrong my friend but it has something to do with the way the leaders and politicians of the former Eastern Block run their nation. Just take a look at South Korea and Japan. These are nations that were occupied by the U.S. and were exploited too, but their leaders were not corrupt and so they succeeded as nation and are able to create a powerful industry which propel their dominance over the economy of the world.
I am not sure if that is thanks to their leadership. Rather it is case of USA allowing them "success". Simply because it was at the time in their interest. It was USA which invested huge capital in their economies in the first place and integrating their economies with their own. Just like they invested in to Western Germany. And for that they had geostrategic reasons. They needed these countries strong against USSR.

I do not want to downplay quality of Japanese and Koreans. They are hard working, disciplined people. But if USA wanted them to be poor, they would have been.
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