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Old October 29th, 2012, 01:27 PM   #51

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Originally Posted by Tulun View Post
The Hungarian statistical office used the Powers Accounting Machine already for the 1930 census so i guess other Central-Eastern European countries also already had some tabulating machines before ww2. But it shouldn't be overestimated either, most 19th century churchbooks also already had indexes to find people more easily in them so even with papers and pencils it was not an impossible task to make databases.

But i'm not sure if tabulating machines were used in Hungary for the deportation of jews in particular.
The 1st Jewish law was passed in 1938, this defined Jews as those who were members of the Jewish faith and those who converted to Christianity after 1st August 1919. The second Jewish law was passed in 1939 and this defined Jews as those who were of Jewish faith, one of their parents was of Jewish faith or had at least 2 grandparents who were of Jewish faith during or before this law came into effect. These two laws limited the share of Jews in certain occupations and there were a long list of exemptions under these.
The third Jewish law was passed in 1941 and according to it Jew was somebody who had at least 2 Jewish grandparents. This prohibited marriage and sexual intercourse between Jews and non-Jews. Just as in other countries that time in personal documents the religion of the persons was also mentioned and the last census was done in 1941 that also asked about religion.

The introduction of yellow David star badges, ghettoisation and deportation were only started in 1944 after German occupation but years after the first Jewish laws so by this time even without tabulating machines there was a good updated data for who is Jew in Hungary and where are they located.

Anyways blaming IBM for holocaust is pathetic, with the same logic they could just blame Stephenson for inventing the steam locomotive, without trains they couldn't transport so many Jews in a so short time to the death camps...
You might notice in my posts that I included in my argument that the Holocaust would have still have happened regardless of IBM. So you can stop the nonsense of "blaming IBM for holocaust is pathetic". Read more and you will be enlightened.

My point was that before IBM the Nazis estimated there were some 400,000 Jews living in Germany. To murder that many Jews would not have required elaborate gas chambers and ovens, maybe not even camps or much transportation... the Nazis would have just continued taking the Jews to the edge of town to shoot them. Once the IBM machines were used the number jumped from 400,000 Jewish people to the astonishing 2,000,000 Jewish people. This new figure did not seem to deter Hitler, who I argue, only then found the need for these huge death camps... as we now know some 6 million Jews were eventually found in Europe... many of them thanks to the IBM punch card computers.

You can still find a machine in the Holocaust museum in DC.
Locating the Victims
and more on the history and the medal Hitler awarded the American IBM Chief here if you are inclined to learn.
IBM_and_the_Holocaust IBM_and_the_Holocaust
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Old October 29th, 2012, 02:55 PM   #52

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This new figure did not seem to deter Hitler, who I argue, only then found the need for these huge death camps... as we now know some 6 million Jews were eventually found in Europe... many of them thanks to the IBM punch card computers.
Is this argument based on some evidence or is it just your opinion? I mean that Hitler decided to build concentration camps for Jews as a consequence of use of IBM computers?

Given that concentration camps were not build for Jews at first but for political opponents I find it quit unlikely. But may be I am wrong.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 11:17 PM   #53
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The IBM punch-cards is actually a very interesting example of how human intention and technology condition each other. Nazi intentions couldn't quite develop they way they did without the technology able to allow it, and the technology itself obviously wouldn't have had any intent to register, later murder, Jews on a grand scale — until the technology was set up in such a way as to help with just that.

The Nazis had it in for the Jews. The technology allowed the extension, management and implementation of these actions against Jews as a much wider group, much more systematically than any attempt prior to this period would have been able to contemplate. The resulting situation was a kind of composite of Nazi beliefs and intents and technological empowerment to keep track of Jews.

That's one of the primarily shocking thing about the Holocaust to a sociologist lik Zygmynt Baumann; not just the murderous bloodthirst of it, but how inherently modern then whole thing was.
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Old October 30th, 2012, 12:00 AM   #54

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Locating the Victims

Did anything like that happen in Poland?
The link doesn't work, I'm afraid.
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Old October 30th, 2012, 06:51 AM   #55

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Hitler or Stalin--who is worse anti semetic ?


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Thanks for that look into the paranoid and twisted world of Adolf Hitler, the most horrific mass murderer and psychopath in history. Some write that he was not actually anti-semitic, that he helped Jewish people he had known in the Great War. Your earlobe story puts paid to that and shows how severely demented he was... looking for Jewish people everywhere.
Hitler gave oral orders to Himmler and his satraps for the so called " Final Solution " i.e. the physical elimination of jews.He was clever enough to avoid recording his orders in writing, but nobody needs to assume that he did not want to annihilate all of the jews in Europe physically. Let us say he was responsible for about 6 million deaths of jews.
Stalin was, in general far more bloodthirsty than Hitler.He gave written orders to kill people without any scruples whatsoever. He knew that almost all of them were totally innocent of the crimes to which confessions had been obtained from them by torture. He had fixed quotas for executions and wanted the quotas to be met, preferably exceeded.Figures differ but he was responsible for about 20 million deaths in Russia. Many of them were jewish, some of whom were his comrades-in-arms during the early days of the Revolution and the Soviet Govt. He was, in the later part of his life definitely and deliberately anti-semetic, pl.vide the Doctor's Plot trials.
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Old October 30th, 2012, 08:32 AM   #56

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Hitler gave oral orders to Himmler and his satraps for the so called " Final Solution " i.e. the physical elimination of jews.He was clever enough to avoid recording his orders in writing, but nobody needs to assume that he did not want to annihilate all of the jews in Europe physically.
This is highly doubtful. Why on Earth would Hitler waned to hid such a intention?
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Old October 30th, 2012, 09:55 AM   #57

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Reading through this thread I get the impression that many people overestimate the planning and organizational capabilities of the Nazis. In reality, many events in that time developed out of a certain anarchy between different institutions and were not planned beforehand. In a similar way, the Nazi world view is a mixture of different ideologies that in itself is not even consistent.

The question who is a Jew was of course one of the central problems, especially in a country like Germany with advanced assimilation and intermarriage. Thus, the infamous Nuremberg Laws were passed in 1935:

Click the image to open in full size.

I seriously doubt that Hitler would have liked the number of "Jews" in Germany going up from half a million to two million, as suggested in another post. In contrast, the Nuremberg laws provided the possibility for people with some Jewish ancestry to be integrated into the mainstream German society.

It is also very doubtful that the mass killing of Jews was the original intention of the Nazis; at least in the years up to 1941, they encouraged emigration, and not the killing, of Jews. For example, the majority of Germans labeled as "Jewish" emigrated before WWII and thus survived.

The situation in Eastern Europe was different. Here, the Jews were often not assimilated and easily recognizable by their clothes, language, customs, and place of living. I don't think that much research was necessary to identify these Jews; most were anyway living in their own towns or quarters. And this is probably where the Holocaust started in 1941, with the mass shootings committed by the Einsatzgruppen behind the front lines. Thus, the Holocaust in the strict sense did not start in Germany. In my opinion, the radicalization and brutalization brought about by the war was a necessary condition for the Holocaust to happen.

After this radicalization, also Jews from Western Europe were deported to the killing camps. Here, a lot more bureaucracy was needed for identifying, locating, and transporting the victims.
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Old October 30th, 2012, 10:16 AM   #58

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Reading through this thread I get the impression that many people overestimate the planning and organizational capabilities of the Nazis. In reality, many events in that time developed out of a certain anarchy between different institutions and were not planned beforehand. In a similar way, the Nazi world view is a mixture of different ideologies that in itself is not even consistent.

The question who is a Jew was of course one of the central problems, especially in a country like Germany with advanced assimilation and intermarriage. Thus, the infamous Nuremberg Laws were passed in 1935:

I seriously doubt that Hitler would have liked the number of "Jews" in Germany going up from half a million to two million, as suggested in another post. In contrast, the Nuremberg laws provided the possibility for people with some Jewish ancestry to be integrated into the mainstream German society.

It is also very doubtful that the mass killing of Jews was the original intention of the Nazis; at least in the years up to 1941, they encouraged emigration, and not the killing, of Jews. For example, the majority of Germans labeled as "Jewish" emigrated before WWII and thus survived.

The situation in Eastern Europe was different. Here, the Jews were often not assimilated and easily recognizable by their clothes, language, customs, and place of living. I don't think that much research was necessary to identify these Jews; most were anyway living in their own towns or quarters. And this is probably where the Holocaust started in 1941, with the mass shootings committed by the Einsatzgruppen behind the front lines. Thus, the Holocaust in the strict sense did not start in Germany. In my opinion, the radicalization and brutalization brought about by the war was a necessary condition for the Holocaust to happen.

After this radicalization, also Jews from Western Europe were deported to the killing camps. Here, a lot more bureaucracy was needed for identifying, locating, and transporting the victims.
Hitler was determined to effectively rid the Millenial Reich of Jews (as well as Poles and other Slavs) However, you're right wholesale physical extermination, while not excluded, wasn't originally on the agenda. Had the conquest of Soviet territory succeeded, the Jews would most probably have been dumped in Siberia.

And it's equally true that what encouraged Hitler to implement the Final Solution were mass executions of Polish citizens carried out by NKVD, and the discovery of their mass graves folowing June 1941. I don't mean only Katyń, but the piles of massacred corpses Germans found in abandoned Soviet prisons on former Polish Republic's territories occupied by the Soviets: in the towns of Lwow, Vilnus, Grodno, Minsk and many others. It brought home to Hitler that a problem of an unwanted ethnic group can be solved simply by physically exterminating the group in question.

On the other hand, it's worth bearing in mind the Germans carried out systematic mass executions of Polish citizens (Polish, Jewish and others) from the moment of their invasion of Poland. So they didn't really need a cue from the Soviets.
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Old October 30th, 2012, 11:15 AM   #59

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Hitler was determined to effectively rid the Millenial Reich of Jews (as well as Poles and other Slavs) However, you're right wholesale physical extermination, while not excluded, wasn't originally on the agenda. Had the conquest of Soviet territory succeeded, the Jews would most probably have been dumped in Siberia.

And it's equally true that what encouraged Hitler to implement the Final Solution were mass executions of Polish citizens carried out by NKVD, and the discovery of their mass graves folowing June 1941. I don't mean only Katyń, but the piles of massacred corpses Germans found in abandoned Soviet prisons on former Polish Republic's territories occupied by the Soviets: in the towns of Lwow, Vilnus, Grodno, Minsk and many others. It brought home to Hitler that a problem of an unwanted ethnic group can be solved simply by physically exterminating the group in question.

On the other hand, it's worth bearing in mind the Germans carried out systematic mass executions of Polish citizens (Polish, Jewish and others) from the moment of their invasion of Poland. So they didn't really need a cue from the Soviets.
Just as a side note to your post - there was actually a fierce debate in the late 1980s in West Germany among historians and intellectuals in regard to the singularity of the Holocaust and its comparison with the crimes of the Soviets. At the origin of this debate was the hypothesis of well-known historian of fascism Ernst Nolte that the crimes of the Nazis had been a "response" to the crimes of the Bolsheviks - or that at least their example was a necessary precondition for the radicalization of the Nazis. However, most intellectuals involved in this debate ("Historikerstreit") denied such a causality, and Ernst Nolte was kind of ostracized.
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Old October 30th, 2012, 11:21 AM   #60

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Just as a side note to your post - there was actually a fierce debate in the late 1980s in West Germany among historians and intellectuals in regard to the singularity of the Holocaust and its comparison with the crimes of the Soviets. At the origin of this debate was the hypothesis of well-known historian of fascism Ernst Nolte that the crimes of the Nazis had been a "response" to the crimes of the Bolsheviks - or that at least their example was a necessary precondition for the radicalization of the Nazis. However, most intellectuals involved in this debate ("Historikerstreit") denied such a causality, and Ernst Nolte was kind of ostracized.
Fact is Bolshevik mass atrocities were first and paved the way to Nazism.
Soviet communism was the first totalitarian state and a model for the Third Reich.

Which in no way absolves the Nazis.

Btw, I read today that a third monument to victims of Nazi genocide has lately been erected in Berlin. After Jews and homosexuals - the Gypsies. Aren't you forgetting someone, by any chance..?
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