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Old November 5th, 2012, 07:00 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Iolo View Post
Under a capitalist tyranny like that of the nazis no-one can speak or think clearly, ever. A man I knew, Philip Whitehead, used to give an interesting illustrated talk showing how you had to look at things like how people raised (or sort-or-raised) their arms for 'Heil Hitler' to have the slightest notion of what they were thinking. And as for troops, to judge from my own memories, what they were thinking was mainly: 'I want to hang the officers/get drunk/go home', which produced enough aggression to keep the crap going.
And when the soldiers came home, they did get drunk and they had causal sex with as many women as they could. This was true in the US anyway.

In the US the war was marketed with pin up girls, and a lot of romance. Marriage rates soared, and following the war, the divorce rate soared. At this time, divorce laws were weakened more and more. For awhile the government and media switched from promoting the war, to promoting family values. This stopped in 1958. Followed by the social upheaval of the 1960's and national youth crisis of 1970, now most people seem to argue morals are no more than a personal choice, and we argue about the value of marriage, never mentioning the children, and who is responsible for them, as though children do not exist.
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Old November 5th, 2012, 07:01 AM   #12
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This thread has some very interesting comments. Because the US adopted the German model of bureaucracy and also the German model of education for technology, and I am thinking we are the same path Germany followed. The Military Industrial Complex established during President Eisenhower's term is what Hitler and Bush call the New World Order. We are no longer ordered by family order, and even if threw all our weapons in the oceans, we would still be ordered by this military order, because we have the institutions for it.

The 1960's social upheaval and the 1970 national youth crisis, followed the 1958 National Defense Education Act, that replaced our liberal education with the German model of education for technology, which was established before the first world war, and both time is about advancing military and industrial technology. Liberal education transmitted a culture, and education for technology, as my high school teacher said when the act was implemented, is for a technological society with unknown values.
The emotions are talking about are about values. The only shared value we have had for the 40 years is money, and following orders and policy.
We have made ourselves the valueless, mechanical society Germany was.

We have literally conditioned young minds to function differently. We replaced education for independent thinking with "group think". Some schools are adding logic, but for awhile logic was replaced by a focus on memorization. We went form the Conceptual Method to the Behaviorist Method, which is also used for training dogs.
That is interesting. Ultimately, however, all historical models collapse before the economic needs of the people concerned, even if you brainwash them to American levels. The difficulty is that we are nearing the last possible chance of human survival, and the money-masters don't care.
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Old November 5th, 2012, 07:28 AM   #13

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I tend to believe in Christopher Browning's Ordinary Men thesis, which is the idea that Germans fought and committed horrible acts because they were indifferent. The average man just did not care about German nationalism, nor did he care about the lives of Jews and others. Thus, nearly all Germans, even those who opposed Nazism, could be coerced into committing crimes or be silent as they occurred.
Absolutely. I've always said that, too. Many a thread on Hitler on these forums, too, assert that Hitler and the Nazis were all monsters and anyone who followed them were also monsters or deluded.

I always pointed out that what the Nazis did required legions of ordinary, nondescript men to just ask no questions and do as they were told. Their attitude when brought to justice was revealing: "I was just following orders" or "I was just a clerk. I made sure the Zyklon B got their own time and never ran out. You can't blame me".
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Old November 5th, 2012, 07:49 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by athena View Post
And when the soldiers came home, they did get drunk and they had causal sex with as many women as they could. This was true in the US anyway.

In the US the war was marketed with pin up girls, and a lot of romance. Marriage rates soared, and following the war, the divorce rate soared. At this time, divorce laws were weakened more and more. For awhile the government and media switched from promoting the war, to promoting family values. This stopped in 1958. Followed by the social upheaval of the 1960's and national youth crisis of 1970, now most people seem to argue morals are no more than a personal choice, and we argue about the value of marriage, never mentioning the children, and who is responsible for them, as though children do not exist.
Not a lot I'd disagree with, except that an awful lot of women had been short of men for too long, and went along with the crap.

'It was in the early 'fifties tedium lived its finest hours -
You could see the whole world shrinking, you could feel time's pulses slow,
As the heroes and the heroines pursued consumer goods'.

They wanted to make up for the wasted 'thirties.
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Old November 5th, 2012, 08:05 AM   #15

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Very true, Athena and Iolo.
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Old November 5th, 2012, 11:39 AM   #16

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Originally Posted by athena View Post
This thread has some very interesting comments. Because the US adopted the German model of bureaucracy and also the German model of education for technology, and I am thinking we are the same path Germany followed. The Military Industrial Complex established during President Eisenhower's term is what Hitler and Bush call the New World Order. We are no longer ordered by family order, and even if threw all our weapons in the oceans, we would still be ordered by this military order, because we have the institutions for it.

The 1960's social upheaval and the 1970 national youth crisis, followed the 1958 National Defense Education Act, that replaced our liberal education with the German model of education for technology, which was established before the first world war, and both time is about advancing military and industrial technology. Liberal education transmitted a culture, and education for technology, as my high school teacher said when the act was implemented, is for a technological society with unknown values.
The emotions are talking about are about values. The only shared value we have had for the 40 years is money, and following orders and policy.
We have made ourselves the valueless, mechanical society Germany was.

We have literally conditioned young minds to function differently. We replaced education for independent thinking with "group think". Some schools are adding logic, but for awhile logic was replaced by a focus on memorization. We went form the Conceptual Method to the Behaviorist Method, which is also used for training dogs.
Those are all good points. I've never thought about the lack of emotion in our German-inspired education system, but its a very good point and something that now that I think of it, I definitely see it.

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Absolutely. I've always said that, too. Many a thread on Hitler on these forums, too, assert that Hitler and the Nazis were all monsters and anyone who followed them were also monsters or deluded.

I always pointed out that what the Nazis did required legions of ordinary, nondescript men to just ask no questions and do as they were told. Their attitude when brought to justice was revealing: "I was just following orders" or "I was just a clerk. I made sure the Zyklon B got their own time and never ran out. You can't blame me".
You're definitely right, though most people who haven't been properly educated in the Holocaust and WW2 do think all Nazis were monsters. This derived from the Cold War, since the American government could never convince the American people to support West Germany if the truth about average German participation in the Holocaust was exposed. Thus, the myth was formed that all Nazis were monsters and all were social outcasts like Hitler and Goering. In the end, most Nazis, even the high ranking ones, were totally indifferent to what they were doing and what was going on around them.

However, we can't forgot the fact that tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of non-Germans were enthusiastic about radical Nazi ideology, and killed because of it. Large swathes of the populations of Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, and especially Croatia, were more than willing to kill off the "lower races". And unfortunately today, many many of these people still celebrate the horrific actions of their ancestors. Militant anti-Semitism is celebrated throughout the Baltic states and in Western-Ukraine, while Catholic clergy who advocated for the murder of Orthodox Serbs at Jasenovac Extermination Camp are praised in Croatia. While the Germans were just "Ordinary Men" the non-Germans were truly "Willing Executioners".
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Old November 6th, 2012, 09:17 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Black Dog View Post
Absolutely. I've always said that, too. Many a thread on Hitler on these forums, too, assert that Hitler and the Nazis were all monsters and anyone who followed them were also monsters or deluded.

I always pointed out that what the Nazis did required legions of ordinary, nondescript men to just ask no questions and do as they were told. Their attitude when brought to justice was revealing: "I was just following orders" or "I was just a clerk. I made sure the Zyklon B got their own time and never ran out. You can't blame me".
I believe the US is ready for the same thing, because the people who do customer service work, and everyone working in a bureaucracy, are like programmed computer parts, who do not relate to humans as humans. Their job is defined by policy and they expect everyone they have contact with to know and follow policy. Whenever possible the human is literally replaced with a machine and computer program, and you can forget explaining why in this case the computer problem does not work, regardless of it you are dealing with a computer program or a human programmed to implement policy. Those of us over 60 remember when things were different. Please, the common man in Germany was no different from the common man in the US. We adopted German institutions and now manifest what Germany manifested. When my generation dies, there will be on memory of when the US was different.
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Old November 6th, 2012, 09:18 AM   #18
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Very true, Athena and Iolo.
Please, don't say what I am saying is true, because I really want to be convinced I am wrong.
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Old November 6th, 2012, 09:42 AM   #19

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Originally Posted by Waxhax View Post
When you think Third Reich, think nationalism.
The average German soldier felt like he was doing what was necessary to restore his Fatherland to it's former glory. Hitler motivated these young men by preaching nationalism, not by preaching about the murder of minorities.
Yes he did blame Minorities such as Jews, but this was not the key motivation.
That is well stated, in my opinion, and very close to completely so.

That last sentence reminds me again of the endless dispute about why the American Civil War was fought, whether to preserve States' independence or to free slaves.

"Yes he did blame Minorities such as Jews, but this was not the key motivation."

Doubtless may will disagree, but not I.
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Old November 6th, 2012, 09:57 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Koko the Monkey View Post
Those are all good points. I've never thought about the lack of emotion in our German-inspired education system, but its a very good point and something that now that I think of it, I definitely see it.



You're definitely right, though most people who haven't been properly educated in the Holocaust and WW2 do think all Nazis were monsters. This derived from the Cold War, since the American government could never convince the American people to support West Germany if the truth about average German participation in the Holocaust was exposed. Thus, the myth was formed that all Nazis were monsters and all were social outcasts like Hitler and Goering. In the end, most Nazis, even the high ranking ones, were totally indifferent to what they were doing and what was going on around them.

However, we can't forgot the fact that tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of non-Germans were enthusiastic about radical Nazi ideology, and killed because of it. Large swathes of the populations of Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, and especially Croatia, were more than willing to kill off the "lower races". And unfortunately today, many many of these people still celebrate the horrific actions of their ancestors. Militant anti-Semitism is celebrated throughout the Baltic states and in Western-Ukraine, while Catholic clergy who advocated for the murder of Orthodox Serbs at Jasenovac Extermination Camp are praised in Croatia. While the Germans were just "Ordinary Men" the non-Germans were truly "Willing Executioners".
What you have said is frightening and I think it should be more closely examined. However, perhaps in a different thread? We know African tribes have committed the worst inhuman acts against those in different tribes. This is a human behavior tied to our biological make up. Hitler deliberately promoted brutality, and cultures around the world also promote brutality, especially brutality against women. We have to accept we are capable of cannibalism, and what happened on Easter Island could happen any where. We have to know how flexible human nature is and the importance of education for civilization if we want civilization and not a reality like the reality shows and gladiator games, or Star Treks computer run societies.

Traditionally religion civilized people, but there is another way. The US and Britain had education to make "good citizens". We replaced this with amoral education for technology, and literally have prepared the minds of the young to operate as computers, rather than as critical thinkers. We might want to rethink what we have done and if we should return to an education that advances human civilization, not societies that effectively are run by computers, and have enough military power to destroy the planet. I don't think fantasies of robot run worlds are healthy. What does this say of our values? We have chosen to dehumanize ourselves, to be "professional" and to be ruled by policy. Emotional humans are flexible and perhaps we want them to be different from robots? Perhaps we want them to have shared values, and perhaps we want them to question authority?

However, I had a college professor humiliate in front the class when I said, as a manager I should use my own judgment in how to resolve a problem, although higher management, in a different location, opposed my idea. He told the whole class, never question authority because it would be a bad career move. Given the problem we were suppose to resolve, and this obedience to authority, failure was the only possible outcome. What do you think is happening to the US? By the way, I minored in Public Administration and Policy, and what I am saying is about more then an opinion. We are organized by a military style chain of command, and this is not the democracy we defended in two world wars.

We create what we imagine and perhaps we should be careful about the future we imagine? I am wondering if people will ever speak of children, when they debate the value of monogamy? In a thread that has attracted females, it is said women have always been the glue of civilizations although these civilizations have been patriarchies. Maybe it should not be just the weaker sex, asking who will care for the children? Did women's lib, liberate women, or make it taboo to be feminine? Are children of no more value than pet dogs? What does this have to do with what happened in Germany? A lot! Why are men more willing to be loyal to the military or industry, than their wives and children? Is military/industrial order better for us than family order?

Last edited by athena; November 6th, 2012 at 10:08 AM.
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