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Old November 7th, 2012, 08:31 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Toomtabard View Post
All these theories is the basic fact that -from 1935 onwards EVERY German soldier had to swear a personal oath of loyalty to Hitler and the Nazi party.
Consequently, while there were noble exceptions in the Wehrmacht whose actions demonstated that they had not been totally corrupted by the foul racism of Nazism the majority of Wehrmacht soldiers played a leading role in both the Holocaust and Nazi war crimes as active participants or passive accomplices.
The concept of the noble non-Nazi Wehrmacht ordinary soldier is deluded fantasy.
''Orders ae Orders'' was another phoney argument because EVERY Wehrmacht soldier had in his paybook a list of rules of conduct which precluded assisting the kind of Nazi crimes caried out against civilian populations in the east especially.-but this was routinely ignored.
The movie "The Reader" makes a point of joining the NAZI party being the path to a better job, and if also makes a point of this blind willingness to follow orders. I see this all around me, and have written how a college professor in the US 1980 was teaching his students to never question authority because this is a bad career move. Be very clear on this. I am saying the say mentality that lead to what happened in Germany is happening here and we are organized for this. There are counter forces and this hopeful, but if we do not recognize the US is in a difficult transitional stage, and we do not resolve our economic problems, who knows how what will happen?
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Old November 7th, 2012, 09:09 AM   #32
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First of ll thank you for these thread and the participating members. A lot of good postings.
Your words above remember me to a german officer. I can't find the source. i must have a look. He participated in the shooting of civilians in Russia and reported this to his wife. He was a loving father of some little children. He wrote to his wife about his problematic JOB. A job, that had to be done. He told her how difficult it was for him, especially the killing of the children. He mentioned that he had to shot some children which looked like his own. He told his wife what a great mercy and favour it was, that he shot this kids in a "clean, fair" way. Much more mercyful than the jews and Russians would kill his children, if they would get the possibility to do this.
Many participated in these killings, the most not directly. I know the story about two female secretaries, who discussed whom they'll send today to the death camps, the victims were just numbers, just files.
It is similar in the behaviour to the US helicopter crew, who killed several civilians some time ago. Please, I don't compare what they did with nazi crimes!!! i want to try the psychology behind it. The people on the ground were no real humans, they became some kind of computer game figures. And what they recognized as human was just an evil muslim, who would kill innocent Americans if he could. This is what you call correct "dehumanisation".

I don't like the terms "ordenary" or "average" german in this context, because we had it in these forum already, some use it to blame all germans, to show that it is a german gene or character fault. The term itself is not that wrong, if we accept, that you don't have to be a psychopathic monster to commit crimes. Bluehawk said it correct, people must be trained not to kill. War, hate and murder are not an exception in mankind's history, but the rule.

What happened in germany can happen everywhere, it is in all of us. That it happened in Germany had some special reasons. Anti-semitism is just one reason for it, but anti-semitism was nearly everywhere, even worse in other countries. But this would lead to much away from the thread.

So in general one can say, that the vast majority felt to be in a fight to protect germany of jews and communists. When soldiers saw the murders in the east, they recognized it of course, but put it into their frame of reference and in this frame "the Soviet" was brutal, too. They had to do their job and to survive. That was, what was important for them. When it went back and the closer it came to the border of the reich it was a struggle for the own survival and those of their families. Jews and others had again no place in their frame.
Yes, we must talk honestly about these things, or what happened can be repeated. I am praying truth is not lost in the complexity. The US is like Rome, over extended with a huge military bill, and struggling economically. The US also adopted German models of education and for bureaucratic order.

Be clear, the US replaced its institutions with the institutions that made Germany a military machine and Eisenhower called this Military, Industrial Complex. Germany has sworn to never again go to war for economic reasons, and people in the US have totally changed their attitude on war, and are in favor of using its military might to defend its economic interest. The US demobilized after every war, until Eisenhower and the Koran war, and even since has increasingly raised taxes to pay for military might, and like Hitler, Bush took us to war without budgeting or taxing for it, pushing us to into terrible debt and economic crisis, and the way reporters are talking about this leaves the masses ignorant! We are told Obama won the election because of youth and immigrants, not wars we should not have gotten into, and imitating Hitler is almost every way, even boosting repeatedly about running the New World Order.

None of this is a mystery, as the Prussians began militarizing Germany following the 30 Years War. They centralized German education. US constitution prevents this, but it has been done anyone. They destroyed Germany's national heroes and began praising efficiency. The US has done exactly this, with dramatic social and political ramifications, but the citizens are not aware of this. Oh, the older one's know our heroes were destroyed, but they don't know the social and political ramifications. You need a class in Public Administration and to study the history of education to know this stuff, and who does that?

The bureaucratic change is efficient, but democracy is not efficient. The bureaucratic change is what we fought against, but we are clueless that we are now living under Prussian military bureaucracy applied to citizens. Hello, this is the big government argument, but people aren't understanding what this is about. The words New World Order mean a new order, and we are no longer ordered by family order, as we were before the change. These has been a huge shift of power from the individual to the state. This is good and bad. Our denial, our complete ignorance of all this, is BAD.

The best way to learn history is to repeat it. I know exactly how the Germans who warned something had gone terrible wrong, felt, and their complete powerlessness to stop what it from happening. I take a real beating on the internet for saying what I am saying here. I am very thankful, you have been more open minded, and are not attacking me and threatening to ban me for what I am saying. These forums are the most important arenas for freedom of speech we have, but they are privately owned, and very few of them have adequate freedom of speech. Whenever, I mention this freedom of speech-censorship issue, everyone, absolutely everyone, argues in favor of the mods' right to censor people. It is frightening given what I know about the change.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:33 AM   #33
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People love to project all sorts of stuff on others, regarding them as 'nationally' wicked. Yes, some form of nazism could have sprung up in the UK, for instance, if it had lost World War One. These movements-to-save-capitalism, though, tend to use the sweepings of national minds and ideologies, so I think they would be inevitably different from one another, as was, for instance, the kind of squalor favoured in Franco Spain compared with to Mussolini's nonsense.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 04:43 AM   #34
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Good comment, Iolo. We get so hung up on the racist thing that we forget the fascist part of what happened.

Wasn't it the Clinton administration that considered doing away with unions and having the federal government take the place of unions? On the one hand we have government to protect us from each other, and I see good reason to protect the laborer from the stock holders. On the other hand, fascism in Italy was a labor movement, for the good of the laborer and it became an evil power. So how would explain what went wrong?

The bureaucratic change occurring when the US adopted the German model of bureaucracy, is a step towards fascism, but the intentions are good. In deed the big government we have today, would not be possible without this change. I have a book written during the Roosevelt administration, praising the Big Government that was created when Roosevelt (democrat) asked Hoover (republican) to design this reorganization of government. Other books warned of the dangers of giving government these new powers. What do you think of this change?
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Old November 8th, 2012, 05:17 PM   #35
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Of course the great paradox is that despite the popular theory that the Germans were natural war mongers -inspired by Bismarck/Kaiser Wilhelm and Hitler-it was a German World War One veteran-Erich Maria Remarque-who wrote the greatest anti-war novel in history, in my opinion,-''Im Westen Nichts Neue''-All Quiet on the Western Front'' published in 1929.
But of course, Remarque had to flee to Switzerland once the Nazis took over in 1933. But Remarque had at least, the compensation of an affair with the most gorgeous female anti-Nazi of them all-Marlene Dietrich -who also quit Germany because of the Nazis-as did my favourite on screen Nazi bad guy, Conrad Viedt, a native of Potsdam, Berlin.(Colonel Strasser in ''Casablanca'')
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Old November 8th, 2012, 06:06 PM   #36

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I'll see your Conrad Veidt and raise you a Peter Lorre.

I've got mixed opinions on Fritz Lang.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 01:02 AM   #37

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Originally Posted by Black Dog View Post
I know that feeling. I spend too much of my time saying things I'd much rather weren't true.

Wars are self perpetuating to a large extent. As Hermann Goering said, just tell the people that they're being attacked, denounce any nay-sayer as unpatriotic, and that's it- all done. Once the casualties start coming in, revenge will be a strong motive for those at home and "kill or be killed" for those actually fighting.

In the middle will be legions "just doing their job", whatever that is.
now isent that quite the unambiguas statement, wise words as always Black Dog
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Old November 9th, 2012, 04:51 AM   #38
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I think that most miss what I think is the most vital thing about the number of deaths in WWII. As populations grow, so too do death camps, and inevitable deaths, indiscriminate killing and the like. The fact of the matter is, in any modern war millions will die. And if that invading Army wants to avoid a long occupation, the number will easily quadruple. Nobody sees it but it's quite clear, the holocaust is not the worst crime ever committed, it simply shows the scale of death in modern warfare.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 06:38 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Toomtabard View Post
Of course the great paradox is that despite the popular theory that the Germans were natural war mongers -inspired by Bismarck/Kaiser Wilhelm and Hitler-it was a German World War One veteran-Erich Maria Remarque-who wrote the greatest anti-war novel in history, in my opinion,-''Im Westen Nichts Neue''-All Quiet on the Western Front'' published in 1929.
But of course, Remarque had to flee to Switzerland once the Nazis took over in 1933. But Remarque had at least, the compensation of an affair with the most gorgeous female anti-Nazi of them all-Marlene Dietrich -who also quit Germany because of the Nazis-as did my favourite on screen Nazi bad guy, Conrad Viedt, a native of Potsdam, Berlin.(Colonel Strasser in ''Casablanca'')
Quote:
"Whilst the German princes were thus squandering the treasure and life-blood of their subjects, there was growing up in the the North a little State which was destined, from the most unpromising beginnings, for the most glorious future. It is true that the little Prussian State was wretchedly poor; for that very reason the Prussian rulers had to practice strict economy and unrelenting industry. It is true the country was always insecure and constantly threatened by powerful neighbors; for that very reason the people had to submit to a rigid discipline and a strong military organization. It is true the country was depopulated; for that reason the rulers had to attract foreign settlers by a just, wise, and tolerant government."
From a 1912 book "The Anglo-German Problem" by Charles Saralea.

Do you see a difference in these people's circumstances and the US? When the Prussians took charge of Germany, he used Prussian military bureaucracy for government order. He gave the people, workers compensation, a national pension plan and national medical plan, as well as centralize education, and focus it on technology for military and industrial purpose.

Dr. Friedrich Naumann is quoted in the same book, following an explanation of how England spends more for the military than Germany and that Germany should follow England's example and borrow money to build up the military. The US demobilized after every war until Eisenhower and the Koran war, and then he established the Military, Industrial /Complex which is the New World Order of Germany, minus the racism. We are not paying enough attention to government order, and the fact that Workers Compensation and Social Security require the government order we took from Germany. We wanted to avoid war, when Eisenhower took established the Military Industrial Complex. Reagan took this a step further. And Bush took it to the next level with neo cons New Century American Project.

"The war of the future is a problem of economic organization of the most difficult nature and the highest technical achievement, such as has never been hitherto demanded from any army."

Reagan followed the German model in interesting ways. When he took office, research on poverty disappears from the abstracts (annual list of government funded research) and is replaced with research on welfare fraud. The findings of this research got as much media attention as 9/11 got, and Johnson's war on poverty, is completely turned around, as we scapegoated the poor for our economic problems. We immediately slashed domestic budgets and began pouring money into military spending, and this process of making the US the greatest military power on earth has not stopped.

Obama appears to be trying to turn things around, and this time we blamed the bankers for our economic troubles not the pour. However, we are still in Afghanistan, moving forward with the neo-con's New Century American Project, which is using our military force to defend our economic interest in the mid east. However, Obama has opened our oil fields and hopes make the US independent of foreign oil, but because oil is finite, that is only a temporary fix.

Very important! We might be aware that oil was one of our biggest exports, before we became importers. We are once again exporting oil, and our trade deficit is going down. We need to understand what oil has to do with the strength of the dollar and our economy, and our military spending. We imitated Germany and are using our military to defend our economic interest. We can hide this fact, because this military might relies on the technology we are funding at a huge expense to tax payers, and requires relatively few of our sons and daughters to fight our wars. Oil, money, military might.

Last edited by athena; November 9th, 2012 at 06:44 AM.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 07:21 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by TheSunGod View Post
I think that most miss what I think is the most vital thing about the number of deaths in WWII. As populations grow, so too do death camps, and inevitable deaths, indiscriminate killing and the like. The fact of the matter is, in any modern war millions will die. And if that invading Army wants to avoid a long occupation, the number will easily quadruple. Nobody sees it but it's quite clear, the holocaust is not the worst crime ever committed, it simply shows the scale of death in modern warfare.
We are facing the possibility of nuclear war and this makes anything in the past seem insignificant. It is not the immediate effects of a nuclear blast that are the most frightening, but the destruction of roads and hospitals, and the huge task of responding to those who survive.

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