Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > European History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

European History European History Forum - Western and Eastern Europe including the British Isles, Scandinavia, Russia


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 15th, 2012, 08:07 AM   #31

Potap's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: May 2012
From: Mordor
Posts: 770

Quote:
Originally Posted by Putzi View Post
Are you implying that Potap has to be careful with putting his personal opinion about Russia/SU?
I am not ill with persecution complex. So I think FSB does not observe me. And I doubt they read my posts. As to FBI and CIA I do not care of their opinion concerning my posts. So I have not to be careful with putting my personal opinion about Russia/SU. I can write all that I think. Though someone can not love my opinion.

The interesting thing, Westerners like to teach Russians democracy and a freedom of speech, not seeing the powerful censorship under which they live themselves. I have the possibility to compare Russian forums and English-speaking. The champion of censorship according to my supervision is site of BBC. The most interesting thing, censorship is carried out under the blissful visibility of pre-moderation. But the deep line according to which are published posts at their forum is obvious. If your opinion does not coincide with BBC opinion you almost have no chances to be published there. Though for creation visibility of pluralism of opinions they can sometimes publish your posts in the ratio one from three or one from five. That completely creates impossibility to lead discussion. It's the freedom of speech.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Putzi View Post
In that sense, USSR was state created for workers. If you were willing to work, there were ways to do even more than that. One popular option was to move into polar regions, some were making up to 1'000 rubles per month there.
My uncle worked as the chief electrician-mechanic on a fishing trawler. He earned more than professor.
Potap is offline  
Remove Ads
Old November 15th, 2012, 01:52 PM   #32
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Nov 2009
From: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 3,760

Quote:
Originally Posted by Potap View Post
General Winter has created two threads trying to discuss sir Vinston Cherchil crimes. But someone probable takes it personally as both threads were closed. What is the difference between Russians, Britons and Americans in this case?
On this forum, threads closing do not happen to often. If such things happened, it usually has a good reason to do so. There is a limit of abusive language one can use. Also, this forum is not a platform for spreading post-communist propaganda.
Edward is offline  
Old November 15th, 2012, 06:20 PM   #33

Potap's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: May 2012
From: Mordor
Posts: 770

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
On this forum, threads closing do not happen to often. If such things happened, it usually has a good reason to do so. There is a limit of abusive language one can use. Also, this forum is not a platform for spreading post-communist propaganda.
What about an impartiality? Someone spoke here about impartiality. Look, I am not talking about abusive language. I am talking about closing uncomfortable threads. So everyone can indefinitely discuss Stalin's crimes and his non-existent 60 millions victims, while no one has the right to discuss Winston Churchill crimes. This creates the semblance of the sinlessness of the politician. This falsifies history. Where is your freedom of speech and impartiality?
Potap is offline  
Old November 15th, 2012, 07:54 PM   #34

arkteia's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: Seattle
Posts: 2,016
Smile


Quote:
Originally Posted by Putzi View Post
Are you implying that Potap has to be careful with putting his personal opinion about Russia/SU?
I have to make several small posts because the system is kicking me out.
I do not know Potap, I can speak only for myself. But since Ed's question was, how come he can have normal relationships with Russian immigrants in Australia, but the Russians in Russia would not acknowledge truth about Stalin/USSR, I decided to chime in. Just an example. If Edward asks me, a Russian living in the USA, today, what I think of Katyn, I shall say, "horrible crime, performed by Stalin and his regime, and they were lying about it for years". If he asked me, a woman living in the USSR in 1991, the same question, I probably would have avoided any answer. No one in Gorbachev's USSR would have arrested me for giving the same answer I would give today, but from career standpoint, it would not be wise.

Now I am living in the US. I can comment freely on the aspects of Russian history (sadly, I am much less interested in Russian history than I used to be). But would I openly express my views on anything pertinent to the USA - religion, abortions, gay marriage, Obama, Romney, etc? Not on an open forum. On my FB, yes, and mark it "friends only". To say that I am afraid would be ludicrous. But openly admitting my views may end up in me losing some friends/colleagues/people I see often. In short, it will not help my career, because people here are so passionate about these things.

The best example would be me going to today's Vatican and trying to make Vatican priests admit that the behavior of their church regarding child molestation for many years had been wrong. It is exactly the same as a foreigner coming to the USSR of the 90-es and trying to make a Russian admit that USSR politics, Stalinism, Afghanistan, etc, etc. had been wrong. Again, I can not comment on the mentality of a today's Russian, but today's Russian is either a person of my age who stayed in Russia or a child of that person.

Last edited by arkteia; November 15th, 2012 at 08:16 PM.
arkteia is offline  
Old November 15th, 2012, 08:10 PM   #35

arkteia's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: Seattle
Posts: 2,016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Potap View Post
What about an impartiality? Someone spoke here about impartiality. Look, I am not talking about abusive language. I am talking about closing uncomfortable threads. So everyone can indefinitely discuss Stalin's crimes and his non-existent 60 millions victims, while no one has the right to discuss Winston Churchill crimes. This creates the semblance of the sinlessness of the politician. This falsifies history. Where is your freedom of speech and impartiality?
Well, Potap, Stalin was a criminal... I do not know if it is possible to count the total amount of his victims, because it is growing, but even on Russian TV... You must have watched a movie, "Second World War, day by day", made by a Russian journalist Pravdyuk, a religious and very Pro-Russian man. He made a pretty decent movie, showing how much Stalin's cruelty, rudeness and incompetence cost Russian people. I do not like him using the term "Russian people" instead of "Soviet people" because, after all, Ukrainians, Byelorussians and everyone living in the Soviet Union participated in that war, but in general, it is a very honest movie. Have you seen it? And if you have, how can you say, "his non-existing 60 mln victims"?
arkteia is offline  
Old November 15th, 2012, 08:21 PM   #36
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Nov 2009
From: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 3,760

You know, Arkeita, emigration changed us more than we think. There is a “political correctness” pressure to not discuss issues which could offend somebody religious believes, racial origin or sexual orientation. There is a social "censorship” which we are encountering every day.
But all political issues could be discussed freely providing that one can support his claim with recognised historical sources.
This is not always the case with people of former Soviet Union.
A lot of old “dogmas” are still in use. I’m in possession of 10 volumes History of WWII issued by USSR Academy of Science. If someone uses these books as a source, he will obviously clash with western members of this forum.

There was one Russian member of this forum,I think that his name was Aspartam. We have clashed few times regarding same old Polish-Soviet issue but after while we get along pretty well. I regret that he is not more visible, he was a good man to discuss all political issue without any reservation. I wish that he will return one day.

Last edited by Edward; November 15th, 2012 at 08:28 PM.
Edward is offline  
Old November 15th, 2012, 08:31 PM   #37
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Nov 2009
From: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 3,760

Quote:
Originally Posted by Potap View Post
What about an impartiality? Someone spoke here about impartiality. Look, I am not talking about abusive language. I am talking about closing uncomfortable threads. So everyone can indefinitely discuss Stalin's crimes and his non-existent 60 millions victims, while no one has the right to discuss Winston Churchill crimes. This creates the semblance of the sinlessness of the politician. This falsifies history. Where is your freedom of speech and impartiality?
I did not follow up this “Churchill crimes” thread but putting name “Stalin” and “Churchill” in the same context as a big misunderstanding.

Last edited by Edward; November 15th, 2012 at 08:52 PM.
Edward is offline  
Old November 15th, 2012, 08:41 PM   #38

arkteia's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: Seattle
Posts: 2,016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
You know, Arkeita, emigration changed us more than we think. There is a “political correctness” pressure to not discuss issues which could offend somebody religious believes, racial origin or sexual orientation. There is a social "censorship” which we are encountering every day.
But all political issues could be discussed freely providing that one can support his claim with recognised historical sources.
This is not always the case with people of former Soviet Union.
A lot of old “dogmas” are still in use. I’m in possession of 10 volumes History of WWII issued by USSR Academy of Science. If someone uses these books as a source, he will obviously clash with western members of this forum.

There was one Russian member of this forum,I think that his name was Aspartam. We have clashed few times regarding same old Polish-Soviet issue but after while we get along pretty well. I regret that he is not more visible, he was a good man to discuss all political issue without any reservation. I wish that he will return one day.
Well, with Google and Internet, alluding to History of WWII issued by USSR Academy of Science would be strange, but who knows... There books are "rare" these days, congratulations!
Problem with Russian "sources" is, actually, lack thereof. Remember the situation with Molotov-Ribbentrop pact? No documents found in KGB, nothing, there was no pact, just rumors! After the unification of Germany, mysteriously, a German copy appeared. With the chart, the borders, everything... And the Russian copy is still missing... (To paraphrase Comrade Stalin, "there is a pact, there is a problem. There is no pact, there is no problem".
arkteia is offline  
Old November 15th, 2012, 08:56 PM   #39
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Nov 2009
From: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 3,760

[QUOTE=arkteia;1258641]Well, with Google and Internet, alluding to History of WWII issued by USSR Academy of Science would be strange, but who knows... There books are "rare" these days, congratulations!
QUOTE]
Thanks, i will keep them for my grandchildren
Edward is offline  
Old November 15th, 2012, 08:59 PM   #40
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,034

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
On this forum, threads closing do not happen to often. If such things happened, it usually has a good reason to do so. There is a limit of abusive language one can use. Also, this forum is not a platform for spreading post-communist propaganda.
You call that post communist propaganda? Chiang kai-shek was not a fan of stalin and hated communism, and he also hated the british empire and thought Winston Churchill was a massive obese jerk. chiang's government constantly stirred up trouble with britian even during WW2 and provoked churchill over british concessions in china as well as soviet ones. The republic of china had worse relations with britain under churchill than the people's republic of china. Senior military figures in the kuomintang privately called both western and soviet governments imperialists and were going to drive them all out.

All of those american anti communists didn't know what chiang and others really thought about them behind their backs, they conviniently forgot that he was known as the "red general", and feared by westerner imperialists in china when he became known internationally in the northern expedition.

Even though he hated the soviet union's imperialist intents, which were the same as the british and japanese, Chiang copied more of the soviet military and political system than the west and kept it while he ruled over taiwan.

The armed forces of the republic of china used political commisars, the national revolutionary armed was trained at the whampoa military academy with soviet advisors, and secret police modeled like the NKVD were used to monitor the military for political activity. There was an incident in taiwan 1955 because western educated officers like Sun Liren opposed it, and he was arrested for being a CIA spy. Chiang and the CIA hated each other, they ran operations in china without telling him and he refused to cooperate.

All important industries were all state owned. The arms and aerospace industry in taiwan are state owned. Chiang also attacked the merchant corps in guangzhou and twice during his government, capitalists were terrorized and their assets nationalized.

You don't have to be communist to hate capitalism or imperialism.
deke is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > European History

Tags
feminism, soviet, union


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Who was the leader of the Soviet Union? Qymaen General History 2 July 15th, 2012 06:28 PM
Housing in the Soviet Union Earl Byrhtnoth History Help 0 October 13th, 2011 07:20 AM
Collapse of the Soviet Union Isoroku295 General History 43 June 12th, 2011 01:09 PM
Attitude of Soviet Union towards Japan in WWII as Japan tried to seek Soviet mediation? curiositay History Help 3 February 22nd, 2010 02:40 PM
Soviet Union collapse Jazze History Book Reviews 8 September 22nd, 2008 05:33 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.