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Old November 15th, 2012, 09:21 PM   #41
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You call that post communist propaganda? Chiang kai-shek was not a fan of stalin and hated communism, and he also hated the british empire and thought Winston Churchill was a massive obese jerk. chiang's government constantly stirred up trouble with britian even during WW2 and provoked churchill over british concessions in china as well as soviet ones. The republic of china had worse relations with britain under churchill than the people's republic of china. Senior military figures in the kuomintang privately called both western and soviet governments imperialists and were going to drive them all out.

All of those american anti communists didn't know what chiang and others really thought about them behind their backs, they conviniently forgot that he was known as the "red general", and feared by westerner imperialists in china when he became known internationally in the northern expedition.

Even though he hated the soviet union's imperialist intents, which were the same as the british and japanese, Chiang copied more of the soviet military and political system than the west and kept it while he ruled over taiwan.

The armed forces of the republic of china used political commisars, the national revolutionary armed was trained at the whampoa military academy with soviet advisors, and secret police modeled like the NKVD were used to monitor the military for political activity. There was an incident in taiwan 1955 because western educated officers like Sun Liren opposed it, and he was arrested for being a CIA spy. Chiang and the CIA hated each other, they ran operations in china without telling him and he refused to cooperate.

All important industries were all state owned. The arms and aerospace industry in taiwan are state owned. Chiang also attacked the merchant corps in guangzhou and twice during his government, capitalists were terrorized and their assets nationalized.

You don't have to be communist to hate capitalism or imperialism.
We are hitch-hike this thread so I do not expect any answer..
The only one think I can say that Chiang and Nationalist Chinees army cooperate with British Forces in Burma pretty well.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 10:24 PM   #42

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Now I am living in the US. I can comment freely on the aspects of Russian history. But would I openly express my views on anything pertinent to the USA - religion, abortions, gay marriage, Obama, Romney, etc? Not on an open forum. On my FB, yes, and mark it "friends only". To say that I am afraid would be ludicrous. But openly admitting my views may end up in me losing some friends/colleagues/people I see often. In short, it will not help my career, because people here are so passionate about these things.
Self-censorship might be rather commonplace in American society, but you're grasping at straws when trying to apply such explanation to me or Potap or any other Russian among these boards (not so many of them are still left here, though).

Russian society avoids political correctness in general so far, and I surely hope this concept will never find too much of solid ground here.


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It is exactly the same as a foreigner coming to the USSR of the 90-es and trying to make a Russian admit that USSR politics, Stalinism, Afghanistan, etc, etc. had been wrong.
Lol, some people were making careers exactly that way since 90s. And I don't remember them or foreigners being too shy about teaching us about how criminal our history is.


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And the Russian copy is still missing... To paraphrase Comrade Stalin, "there is a pact, there is a problem. There is no pact, there is no problem".
Wrong quote. That phrase was entirely fictionalized by Rybakov.

And the copy was either found or fabricated back in 90s, btw.

Which year did you leave the country?

Last edited by Putzi; November 15th, 2012 at 10:29 PM.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 08:31 AM   #43

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Well, Potap, Stalin was a criminal... I do not know if it is possible to count the total amount of his victims, because it is growing, but even on Russian TV... You must have watched a movie, "Second World War, day by day", made by a Russian journalist Pravdyuk, a religious and very Pro-Russian man. He made a pretty decent movie, showing how much Stalin's cruelty, rudeness and incompetence cost Russian people. I do not like him using the term "Russian people" instead of "Soviet people" because, after all, Ukrainians, Byelorussians and everyone living in the Soviet Union participated in that war, but in general, it is a very honest movie.
Pravdyuk is the new liberal project in Russia. A kind of new incarnation Svanidze who has bored Russian viewers and has lost all public television discussion against Kurginyan with damning account: 5 - 95 or 10 - 90. It's the shame. Pravdyuk has already got the nickname Lgedyuk (Лжедюк) among professional historians. (It can be translated into English as Liedyuk or Lie-Duke. The free translation.) Usually I do not look films and I do not read books made by Russian liberals as they cause an emetic reflex. But I promise to look a part of this film as it is necessary to know new versions of WWII from our liberals. However I can recommend you the good review of this film by JU.M.Shabalin. I hope you have not forgotten Russian. Just some quotes:

Quote:
"От серии к серии количество измышлений и голословных утверждений в Русской версии всё увеличивается. Непонятно, почему фильм называется Русская версия? Вполне естественно он выглядел бы как версия немецкая, английская или американская."
"From film to film the quantity of fabrications and mere allegations in Russian version increases. Not clear, why film is called Russian version ? Quite naturally it would look as German, English or American version."

"Сериал Вторая мировая война. Русская версия так велик, что вряд ли найдётся много обывателей, решившихся смотреть его из недели в неделю, но тот, кто осилил хоть несколько фильмов подряд, не может не заметить пристрастности авторов."
"Serial Second world war. Russian version is so big, that hardly there will be many inhabitants, who decided to watch it from week to week, but the one who mastered at least a few movies in a row, can not fail to notice author bias."

"Авторы берут Историю Великой Отечественной войны и переиначивают её строчка за строчкой, придавая событиям противоположный смысл. Непонятно лишь, что они будут делать с последним событием эпопеи - капитуляцией фашистской Германии? Неужто сумеют представить и его в виде победы нашего противника?"
"Authors take the History of Great Patriotic war and modify it step by step, giving to events the opposite sense. Just it's not clear, what they will do with last event of the epopee - the capitulation of Nazi Germany? Will they really be able to present it in the form, of our enemy victory?"
The full version of the review in Russian is here. -

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Originally Posted by arkteia View Post
Have you seen it? And if you have, how can you say, "his non-existing 60 mln victims"?
I can say, because I well learned mathematics at school and because we cannot get the figure 168,5 deducting 60 from 148,6. We even cannot get the figure 182,3. 148,6 is the population of the USSR at 1926. 168,5 is population of the USSR at 1939. 182,3 is the population of the USSR at 1951.
Demography_of_the_Soviet_Union Demography_of_the_Soviet_Union

Though 148,6 - 60 = 168,5 is the right mathematics for someone at this forum.

Last edited by Potap; November 16th, 2012 at 08:38 AM.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 08:35 AM   #44

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I did not follow up this Churchill crimes thread but putting name Stalin and Churchill in the same context as a big misunderstanding.
This is your main problem. You even do not want to discuss this theme as a priori believe Churchil is more sacred than Stalin. No doubt, this is an axiom. This is why you feel cultural shock when someone tries to put name "Stalin" and "Churchill" in the same context. Though only the famine in Bengal cost several millions human lives.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 12:28 PM   #45

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OK I am an woman who used to grow up in the Soviet Union, lived there in the time of Perestroika, came here in 1992 and managed to get a second career here, and even have a second child at a ripe age (where are my emoticons? ). So I think I could post something, but in small installments, today is my semi-day off and I have to pick up the kid and drive him to a swimming pool.

My own experience.

...

In regard to pre-1975 era, in comparation with that Soviet life, women's life in Spain would be taliban style or something like that.

--------------


I can add very little to this good thread. Once I watched a docu on DDR (East Germany) sexuality. It was surprising to see how much truelly free was sexual life in the country, not encroched by puritany concepts that push people to buy sex (=prostitution). Nudism was far more widespread, women could enjoy far more freedom in their relations, in the sense of divorce, anticonceptives and bed life. This means that women were able to achieve a very high degree of sexual freedom, of personal freedom in fact. It reminds me to women status in Sparta.

In many ways DDR would be ahead of many present western societies.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 09:40 PM   #46
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This is your main problem. You even do not want to discuss this theme as a priori believe Churchil is more sacred than Stalin. No doubt, this is an axiom. This is why you feel cultural shock when someone tries to put name "Stalin" and "Churchill" in the same context. Though only the famine in Bengal cost several millions human lives.
Im proud of this problem of mine, Potap. For me, Stalin is the bigges criminal the mother earth seen from the big bang.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 09:42 PM   #47

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Frank81, I have not been in Spain of pre-1975. Can not comment. Do not, really, get it anyhow. I had the same impression about healthy attitude to sex in the DDR, but I think it had something to do with German practicality and also, mass athletics was cultivated in DDR, they all were athletes, not just famous sportsmen. Perhaps they felt more comfortable about showing their beautiful bodies? (This sounds Spartan )
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Old November 16th, 2012, 10:00 PM   #48

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Self-censorship might be rather commonplace in American society, but you're grasping at straws when trying to apply such explanation to me or Potap or any other Russian among these boards (not so many of them are still left here, though).

Russian society avoids political correctness in general so far, and I surely hope this concept will never find too much of solid ground here.

Lol, some people were making careers exactly that way since 90s. And I don't remember them or foreigners being too shy about teaching us about how criminal our history is.

Wrong quote. That phrase was entirely fictionalized by Rybakov.

And the copy was either found or fabricated back in 90s, btw.

Which year did you leave the country?
I left the country in 1992. So I did not enjoy much liberty. Rather, a mess. Look, I specially emphacised that I could not speak either for Potap or for you, merely commented on my attitude to open forums. Can I post certain opinions? Yes. Would I post something that might affect me professionally? No. This is all I wanted to say. As to the USA, you are wrong. I do not even know how "political correctedness" factors in here, but issues about gay marriage, and, especially, abortions are very serious, because the society is divided by people who are deeply religious and not religious at all. I am a scientist, and yet I am limited in my ability to educate people, because genes and especially evolution are not accepted by everyone. Trust me, some discussions could be way more heated that what Stalin had done. Especially since Stalin is past, and issues that I have mentioned are very present.

BTW, why did you say "not many of them are still here?

It is a pleasure to have a discussion with you, I do not know if you are "politically correct" or not, but polite you are
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Old November 16th, 2012, 10:11 PM   #49

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Pravdyuk is the new liberal project in Russia. A kind of new incarnation Svanidze who has bored Russian viewers and has lost all public television discussion against Kurginyan with damning account: 5 - 95 or 10 - 90. It's the shame. Pravdyuk has already got the nickname Lgedyuk (Лжедюк) among professional historians. (It can be translated into English as Liedyuk or Lie-Duke. The free translation.) Usually I do not look films and I do not read books made by Russian liberals as they cause an emetic reflex.

I can say, because I well learned mathematics at school and because we cannot get the figure 168,5 deducting 60 from 148,6. We even cannot get the figure 182,3. 148,6 is the population of the USSR at 1926. 168,5 is population of the USSR at 1939. 182,3 is the population of the USSR at 1951. Demography of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Though 148,6 - 60 = 168,5 is the right mathematics for someone at this forum.
Good evening/morning, Potap. Yes, I "still" can read and write in Russian. Also, I have Russian alphabet on my computer, but your link did not make much sense. Can you post it again, please?

A couple of questions. First of all, would you mind defining "Russian liberal"? Also, is there any difference between "liberal" and "Russian liberal"? In my mind, "liberal" is not a bad word, if it "causes an emetic reflex", how would you define yourself?

How many people were killed by Stalin, per your guestimate?

As to Pravduyk's film, I liked it. I agree, it becomes boring at times, but interesting nonetheless.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 08:27 AM   #50

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Im proud of this problem of mine, Potap. For me, Stalin is the bigges criminal the mother earth seen from the big bang.
It's very nice for you, as the unwillingness to know the truth is the subject of your pride. Though I can understand you of course. It is very comfortable to live in a world where everything is classified. Stalin is the evil beech, Churchill is the pretty nice guy. What's the reason to change something? Additional knowledge leads to dissent. Doesn't it? So do not speak about impartiality in this case. Ok?!
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