Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > European History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

European History European History Forum - Western and Eastern Europe including the British Isles, Scandinavia, Russia


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 27th, 2012, 04:02 PM   #21
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2012
From: Northern part of European lowland
Posts: 1,174

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacific_Victory View Post
I can only imagine what it must have felt like for Europeans to venture into Siberia for example. Or Alaska.
No lesser achievement than the discoveries and explorers that went over the oceans from Western Europe, or from the U.S.A. The colonisation and exploration of the east took some centuries, though perhaps the decades around 1600 was its height. Peter 1.sts ambitious plans to "imitate" the western colonial powers with large scale expansion into Northamerica from the west, and establish connections with eat Asia and Japan in particular lead to two huge expeditions, both lead by the dane Vitus Johannesen Bering, and other non russian key persons involved. Resultting in establisment of settlements far east, like Kamkatcha, exploration of the pacific coast and the islands to the strait and eastwards far into Alaska. I don´t know that much about earlier and later russian expeditions, except that the easternmost point of Asia was reached long before Bering, but that it was unnoticed for centuries.
When we say russians went east to "roll back" the mongolian enemies, at least in the early stages of expansion that seems not that different from the initial stage of western european global expansion, since the later can be seen as in part a continuation of the "rolling back" of the muslims or "moors" first from the iberian peninsula and later beginning in Northern Africa and beyond. So there seems to be parralels, and probably the russians were to some degree "inspired" by the western europeans.
Fantasus is offline  
Remove Ads
Old November 27th, 2012, 04:08 PM   #22

f0ma's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
From: 英国
Posts: 808
Blog Entries: 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by funakison View Post
i see you wish to discuss the playing of the great game, by all means open a thread.
I was thinking more about the Far East (Siberia and Manchuria) as opposed to the Middle East, which is where I thought the Great Game played out. Though I would be interested to learn about Sino-Russian interests in Central Asia at the turn of the century. I picked up a book about it quite recently actually, by O. Edmund Clubb. And of course I have a few Hopkirk books knocking about too. But yes, I might take your advice and start a separate thread
f0ma is offline  
Old November 27th, 2012, 07:46 PM   #23

Pacific_Victory's Avatar
SEMISOMNVS
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: MARE PACIFICVM
Posts: 4,883

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantasus View Post
No lesser achievement than the discoveries and explorers that went over the oceans from Western Europe, or from the U.S.A. The colonisation and exploration of the east took some centuries, though perhaps the decades around 1600 was its height. Peter 1.sts ambitious plans to "imitate" the western colonial powers with large scale expansion into Northamerica from the west, and establish connections with eat Asia and Japan in particular lead to two huge expeditions, both lead by the dane Vitus Johannesen Bering, and other non russian key persons involved. Resultting in establisment of settlements far east, like Kamkatcha, exploration of the pacific coast and the islands to the strait and eastwards far into Alaska. I don´t know that much about earlier and later russian expeditions, except that the easternmost point of Asia was reached long before Bering, but that it was unnoticed for centuries.
When we say russians went east to "roll back" the mongolian enemies, at least in the early stages of expansion that seems not that different from the initial stage of western european global expansion, since the later can be seen as in part a continuation of the "rolling back" of the muslims or "moors" first from the iberian peninsula and later beginning in Northern Africa and beyond. So there seems to be parralels, and probably the russians were to some degree "inspired" by the western europeans.
Anyhow there was a large portion of Siberia, namely the northern half which wasn't claimed by the Mongols, at least according to the maps of their empire I've seen. So going into those reaches must have been fairly terrifying. Not to mention the weather. Same thing with Alaska.
Pacific_Victory is offline  
Old November 27th, 2012, 08:38 PM   #24
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,034

Quote:
Originally Posted by f0ma View Post
I was thinking more about the Far East (Siberia and Manchuria) as opposed to the Middle East, which is where I thought the Great Game played out. Though I would be interested to learn about Sino-Russian interests in Central Asia at the turn of the century. I picked up a book about it quite recently actually, by O. Edmund Clubb. And of course I have a few Hopkirk books knocking about too. But yes, I might take your advice and start a separate thread
На Востоке: поездка на Амур - Сергей Максим

На Востокѣ: поѣздка на Амур в 1860-1861 годах : дорож

Путешествіе на Амур: совершенное по распо

Путешествіе на Амур, совершенное по распо

Сибирскій торгово-промышленный и справо&

Сибирскій торгово-промышленный и справо&

Монгольская летопис Ъерденийн эрихеъ [бы

Mongol¹skai︠a︡ li︠e︡topis¹ "rdeni-n rikh": Podlinny- tekst s perevodom i ... - Alekse- Matveevich Pozdneev - Google Books

Энциклопедический словарь - И. Е. Андреевс


Описаніе Мукденьской провинции в южной М

Записки Восточнаго отдѣленія Император&#

Монгольская летопис Ъерденийн эрихеъ [бы

Путешествіе на Амур: совершенное по распо

Якуты - ВасBав Сиеросцевски - Google Books

Русскій вѣстник - Михаил Никифорович Катк

Сказки русских инородцев: с краткими быто

Очерки сѣверо-западной Монголіи: Матеріа

Землевѣдѣние Азии: география стран входя

Западное Забайкалье в сельскохозяйстве&#

Русское слово - Google Books

Русское слово - Гр. А.. Кушелев-Безбородко, Гр

Русское слово - Google Books

China's view

Xibiliya zhi (Siberia) - 中國學部編譯圖書局 - Google Books

東北邊防輯要: 二卷 - 曹廷杰 - Google Books

地圖分編簡明目錄 - China. 外務部 - Google Books

十九世紀外交史 - 平田久, 張相 - Google Books

中俄國際約注: 5卷 - 施紹常 - Google Books

皇朝蓄艾文編: 80卷 - 于寳軒 - Google Books

北徼彙編 - 何秋濤 - Google Books

俄羅斯國紀要: 一卷 - 林則徐, 張樹聲 - Google Books

淵雅堂編年詩稿: 20卷 - 王芑孫 - Google Books

國朝詩人徵略: 60卷 : 二編64卷 - 張維屛 - Google Books

從政觀法錄 - 朱方增 - Google Books

皇清文穎續編 - 董誥 - Google Books

蒙古游牧記 - Mu Zhang (1805-1849) - Google Books

會典簡明錄 - 張祥河 - Google Books

蒙古及蒙古人 - Alekse- Matveevich Pozdneev, 刘汉明 - Google Books

蒙古游牧記 - Mu Zhang (1805-1849) - Google Books

蒙古史: The Mongols proper and the Kalmuks ... with 2 maps by E.G. Ravenstein - 霍渥斯 - Google Books

廬江縣(安徽)志: 15卷, 卷首 : 1卷 - 儲嘉珩, 魏紹源 - Google Books

高厚蒙求 - 徐朝俊 - Google Books

深州直隸州(河北)志 - 李廣滋, 張範東 - Google Books

欽定兵部處分則例: 三十九卷 - China. 兵部 - Google Books

大清律例重訂統纂集成: 40卷, 附督捕則例 : 2卷 - 唐勳 - Google Books

水雲邨吟稾: 十二卷 - 劉壎, 劉凝 - Google Books

歐陽文公圭齋集: 十五卷, 附錄一卷 - 歐陽玄 - Google Books

皇淸開國方略: 三二卷, 首卷一卷 - 乾隆 (Emperor of China) - Google Books

五洲圖考 - 龔柴, 許彬 - Google Books

出使日記 - 薛福成 - Google Books

黒龍江述略: 6卷 - 徐宗亮 - Google Books

俄羅斯國紀要: 一卷 - 林則徐, 張樹聲 - Google Books

北徼彙編 - 何秋濤 - Google Books

戡定新疆記: 八卷 - 魏光燾 - Google Books

歷代職官表: 6卷 - 黄本驥 - Google Books

無邪堂問答: 5卷 - 朱一薪 - Google Books

中俄約章會要: 3卷, 續編1卷 - 同文舘 - Google Books

Last edited by deke; November 27th, 2012 at 09:07 PM.
deke is offline  
Old November 27th, 2012, 11:30 PM   #25
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2012
From: Northern part of European lowland
Posts: 1,174

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacific_Victory View Post
Anyhow there was a large portion of Siberia, namely the northern half which wasn't claimed by the Mongols, at least according to the maps of their empire I've seen. So going into those reaches must have been fairly terrifying. Not to mention the weather. Same thing with Alaska.
There are books out dealing with this russian expansion east, and I have read about Berings 2 expeditions, but unfortunately have not the name of author at hand. The expeditions made some scientific exploration other than "pure map-making". What killed most participants including the commander and others were scurvy, indirectly caused by one sided food lack of vegetables and vitamin C, though for other expeditions it may have been different. The russians treatment of natives were often brutal it seems, but if they were more - or less - so than the usual european conquerors and colonisators is for me an open question. There were some of these "natives", but overall the territories were sparsely populated.
Fantasus is offline  
Old November 28th, 2012, 12:25 PM   #26

Pacific_Victory's Avatar
SEMISOMNVS
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: MARE PACIFICVM
Posts: 4,883

One thing we haven't really touched on is the Russian Army and how the Tsars developed it.

I know that by the time of the Napoleonic wars, Alexander I's army had superb artillery, excellent Guards units (Semonovsky and Preobhyzensky) as well as strong units in the Jaegers and Cossacks. As usual the army as a whole suffered from a lack of decent equipment and training with live ammunition.
Pacific_Victory is offline  
Old November 28th, 2012, 02:06 PM   #27

astafjevs's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Bristol, England
Posts: 766

I believe they employed foreign officers a lot. Patrick Gordon was an expatriate Scot who became a general in Peter the Great's army, and his son-in-law was also an officer.

He certainly took English naval engineers back with him after his shipbuilding adventure and put them in command of ships, and of course Bering was a Dane, so it seems likely to me that the Gordons wouldn't have been the only foreigners in the army.
astafjevs is offline  
Old November 29th, 2012, 05:36 PM   #28
Citizen
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacific_Victory View Post
Being an avid reader of all things Napoleonic, I would like to start with the age of Tsar Alexander I.

[...]

Please share anything you know about Alexander I, or if you have a different Tsar you prefer please share a bit about him/her with us.

All other contributions relating to the Russian Empire are welcome. Let us celebrate or dessicate the Double Headed Eagle as avidly as we do the Hammer and Sickle!
I can recommend the book "Russia against Napoleon" by Dominic Lieven.

A guy to whom I recommended it said, that reading it, after your previous knowledge on the subject came from the usual anglistic/french literature (and eg Tolstoi) is like reading about historic events on wikipedia after watching a hollywood history movie.

It concentrates on the underresearched russian side, not only until Napoleon left Russia, but until the Russians marched into Paris. And Napoleons defeat in Russia is not just conveniently blamed on mainly weather, distance and cossacks...
havoc is offline  
Old November 29th, 2012, 08:00 PM   #29
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,034

Quote:
Originally Posted by f0ma View Post
I was thinking more about the Far East (Siberia and Manchuria) as opposed to the Middle East, which is where I thought the Great Game played out. Though I would be interested to learn about Sino-Russian interests in Central Asia at the turn of the century. I picked up a book about it quite recently actually, by O. Edmund Clubb. And of course I have a few Hopkirk books knocking about too. But yes, I might take your advice and start a separate thread
The russians tried to instigate tibet against britain and china in the great game first with the russified pole Przhevalsky (who hated chinese, mongols, muslims of central asia and all asian people in general), sending him to tibet to meet with the dalai lama and instigate anti british sentiment, but he got kicked out of tibet by the government.

Tournament of Shadows: The Great Game And the Race for Empire in Central Asia - Karl Ernest Meyer, Shareen Blair Brysac - Google Books

Russia then tried to do it again with the Buryat monk Dorzhiev. Their plan failed when britain invaded tibet in 1904, which also prompted a tibetan rebellion in outlying tibetan areas in china, which prompted a severe crackdown on the Tibetans by the Qing dynasty under Han bannerman General Zhao Erfeng. He broke the back of the tibetan army and rebels and kept them crushed until the Xinhai revolution in 1911.

Other than the delusional dreams of Baron Roman von Ungern Sternberg, who was crushed by the red army, russia never could try play a military role in tibet again.

Soviet Russia and Tibet: The Debacle of Secret Diplomacy, 1918-1930s - Aleksandr Andreev - Google Books

Russian Imperialism: The Interaction Of Domestic And Foreign Policy, 1860-1914 - Dietrich Geyer, Bruce Little - Google Books

From Conflict to Conciliation: Tibetan Polity Revisited : a Brief Historical ... - Parshotam Mehra - Google Books

Pilgrims and Travellers in Search of the Holy - René Gothóni - Google Books

The East in the Light of the West: Two Eastern Streams of the Twentieth ... - Serge1 O. Prokof¹ev - Google Books

The buryats considered the Russian czar a reincarnation of the buddhist god White Tara.

Journal of the North-China Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society - Google Books

Journal of the China Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society for the Year ... - Google Books

White Terror: Cossack Warlords Of The Trans-Siberian - Jamie Bisher - Google Books

Marx Went Away - Caroline Humphrey - Google Books

Medicine Between Science and Religion: Explorations On Tibetan Grounds - Vincanne Adams, Mona Schrempf, Sienna R. Craig - Google Books

Last edited by deke; November 29th, 2012 at 08:23 PM.
deke is offline  
Old December 1st, 2012, 05:34 AM   #30

apophaticlogos's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: In a quince, where the seeds are few and almost silent
Posts: 233

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantasus View Post
When we say russians went east to "roll back" the mongolian enemies, at least in the early stages of expansion that seems not that different from the initial stage of western european global expansion, since the later can be seen as in part a continuation of the "rolling back" of the muslims or "moors" first from the iberian peninsula and later beginning in Northern Africa and beyond. So there seems to be parralels, and probably the russians were to some degree "inspired" by the western europeans.
Don't forget, the Russians had a history of 'rolling back' the Mongols from before Western global expansion. It reached its most dramatic climax with the conquest of Kazan in the 1500s, but began long before that. So I think the basic drive was there, independent of the West~ (Though inspiration to some degree, as you say, isn't unthinkable or unlikely)
apophaticlogos is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > European History

Tags
russia, tsarist


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Russia or USA? Cavanboy Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 229 July 29th, 2014 01:25 AM
Why Russia? Magnate European History 465 March 7th, 2014 02:16 PM
Why is Russia so big? lokariototal European History 46 March 3rd, 2011 06:58 AM
Russia Mariyka Khetagurova European History 236 April 2nd, 2010 08:52 AM
***RUSSIA**** Anton_Drexler History Help 10 March 8th, 2010 06:00 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.