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Old December 3rd, 2012, 10:00 PM   #51

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Originally Posted by Mosquito View Post
He didnt. Russians called him Tsar but he officially used titles:

Vladislaus Quartus Dei gratia rex Poloniae, magnus dux Lithuaniae, Russiae, Prussiae, Masoviae, Samogitiae, Livoniaeque, Smolenscie, Severiae, Czernichoviaeque necnon Suecorum, Gothorum Vandalorumque haereditarius rex, electus magnus dux Moschoviae.

"Władysław IV, by grace of God the King of Poland, Grand Duke of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Prussia, Masovia, Samogitia, Livonia, Smolensk, Siewierz, Czernichow and hereditary King of the Swedes, Goths and Vandals, elected Grand Duke of Mouscovy."
In any case this is the personal problem of Poland and its governors which have never been friendly towards Russia and applied for Russian territories. Other European monarches recognized this title.
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 10:11 PM   #52

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The Russian foundation myth places it at Novgograd, actually.
To be absolutely correct the first Russian capital was Staraya Ladoga 862-865. Rurik has moved the capital to Novgorod at 865. [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staraya_Ladoga"]Staraya Ladoga - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
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Old December 4th, 2012, 01:41 AM   #53
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In any case this is the personal problem of Poland and its governors which have never been friendly towards Russia and applied for Russian territories. Other European monarches recognized this title.
No, it was recognised on international scene and especially visible while monarch's were reciving diplomats. First were always ambasadors from Pope or Emperor, next from the kings in order based on how old was the kingdom, next were Grand Dukes and Dukes. Recognition of Russian imperial titles came after Peter the Great if not later when already old diplomatic order wasnt in use anymore.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 03:08 AM   #54
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To be honest, I know absolutely nothing about Alexander the II or III. Perhaps you and the poster above you can provide us with some more detailed insight. I know I would appreciate it.
Yes me too either!!!
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Old December 4th, 2012, 04:25 AM   #55
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There were two main military conflicts during expansion into Siberia. The first one from which was started the expansion is the conquest of Siberian khanate by the squad of Cossacks commanded by Yermak at the end of XVI century. The second one is military collision with Manchus in the Far East at the middle of XVII century. In the rest the expansion into Siberia was peacefully. Siberia always was sparsely populated, there were no reasons for conflicts. Siberia is sparsely populated even nowdays.
Here I have the problem with sources, since what i have read about it is some times ago, and I have forgotten even most titles and authors (though one were from a report by some shipwrecked japanese travelling through Russia to Europe, then returning in either late 17.th or early 18.th century Japan. Though they could have been given capital punishment at that time just for leaving Japan, they were spared to give reports to authorities of what they saw. Some of it were of repression against the "natives " of Kamchatka). So, from that litterature I got that so far there was "peace and harmony" it was much on terms of Russians and especially their authorities.
The relative peace were perhaps the effect many of the peoples had relative little means to defend themselves.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 07:49 AM   #56

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Didn't Russia begin in Kiev?
No. Kievan Rus was created by Ruthenians (today's Belarusians and Ukrainians). Russia began in the Duchy of Moscow.

This distinction is rarely noted by people from outside Eastern Europe, because Western historiography and perception of the region was shaped by the Russian Empire and later Soviet Union. And these were hardly disinterested parties.

This is the forgotten part of the story:

After the weakening of Kievan Rus and its dismemberment into smaller principalities Ruthenian lands were gradually subjugated by the Balt Lithuanians. 1363 Kiev, along with other Ruthenian territories was annexed by the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

As a result of the Polish-Lithuanian union Kiev became part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. In 1494 the Polish king Alexander of the Jagiellonian dynasty gave the city Magdeburg Law. From 1569 Kiev was part of the Polish Crown.

During the 17th century Cossaks (Ukrainians) inhabiting the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth demanded recognition of their military status and national aspirations. They refused to be regarded as serfs and pressed for acceptance as third equal nation within the Commonwealth. Their petitions were repeatedly rejected - the Cossaks had nobody to intercede for them because nearly all Ukrainian nobility had become polonized and Catholic, turning away from their own people and Orthodox religion. In the Polish sejm (parliament) the interests of Ukrainian and Polish great landowners took precedence over interests of the state. This led to a series of violent and extremely bloody so-called Cossak rebellions, which shoud really be called Ukrainian wars of independence.

Having lost hope in the Polish sejm and king ever acceding to Ukrainian just demands, the Cossak hetman Bogdan Chmielnicki turned for help to the Tartars, and then - to the Tzar of Moscow. What the Cossaks had in mind was finding support in their ambition of founding a Ukrainian state. What they got was incorporation into the Duchy of Moscow and gradual but final enslavement.

In 1654 Chmielnicki had to agree to hand Kiev over to the Russian Tzar. Ukraine was split in half between the Russian Empire and the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth. In 1775 Tzarina Katherine had Zaporizhian Sich razed to the ground.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporizhian_Sich"]Zaporizhian Sich - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


Official Russian historiography has served to support Moscow's claim to be the "descendant of Kievan Rus" and its ambition to "unify all Orthodox Russian lands" under the aegis of the Patriarch of Moscow. The fact that Belarusians and Ukrainians are distinctly separate nations speaking distincly different languages was and is denied.

Last edited by antonina; December 4th, 2012 at 08:03 AM.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 11:19 AM   #57

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No, it was recognised on international scene and especially visible while monarch's were reciving diplomats. First were always ambasadors from Pope or Emperor, next from the kings in order based on how old was the kingdom, next were Grand Dukes and Dukes. Recognition of Russian imperial titles came after Peter the Great if not later when already old diplomatic order wasnt in use anymore.
You are wishful thinking. Indeed Poland was opposed to the recognition of this title. Sigismund II Augustus has sent the note to the Pope, in which he warned, the recognition the title " Tsar of all Russia» will lead to the tearing away from Poland and Lithuania the territory populated by Ruthenes who are related to Muscovites, and will involve into the Russian sphere of influence Moldavians and Vlachs. But there were no problems with other countries. England was one of the first countryes which has recognized this title. They did it at 1554. Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor has recognized this title after 1576. The Patriarch of Constantinople Ioasaf II at 1558 informed Ivan the Terrible, «You imperial name is remembered in Churchs, Cathedrals on all Sundays, as names of former Byzantian Tsars; it is ordered to do it in all dioceses where there are metropolitans and bishops ».
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Old December 4th, 2012, 11:22 AM   #58

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Here I have the problem with sources, since what i have read about it is some times ago, and I have forgotten even most titles and authors (though one were from a report by some shipwrecked japanese travelling through Russia to Europe, then returning in either late 17.th or early 18.th century Japan. Though they could have been given capital punishment at that time just for leaving Japan, they were spared to give reports to authorities of what they saw. Some of it were of repression against the "natives " of Kamchatka). So, from that litterature I got that so far there was "peace and harmony" it was much on terms of Russians and especially their authorities.
The relative peace were perhaps the effect many of the peoples had relative little means to defend themselves.
Do not forget one fact. Japan has never been pleased with expansion of Europeans in Asia. Also Japan has never been pleased with Russian expansion in Far East. We have become neighbours of this country and they had no assurance, what if this expansion will be prolonged to the territory of Japan. This is why we can meet the bias to this expansion. I do not exclude the presence of some misunderstanding between natives and colonists. But this misunderstanding could be as well as within colony and between aboriginal population without Russian participation. If one have a bias, one can inflate it to the galactic scale. But there is no necessity to go far away for proofs of peaceful expansion to Siberia. No one ethnos which lived there before the coming of Russians was not destroyed, including "natives" of Kamchatka. Compare it to the situation in North America for example. By the way the expansion to Alaska was not so peaceful as expansion to Siberia. Contemporaries marked periodic collisions between Russian colonists and local American Indian population. So Russian history does not hide these facts.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 11:27 AM   #59

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No. Kievan Rus was created by Ruthenians (today's Belarusians and Ukrainians). Russia began in the Duchy of Moscow.

This distinction is rarely noted by people from outside Eastern Europe, because Western historiography and perception of the region was shaped by the Russian Empire and later Soviet Union. And these were hardly disinterested parties.

This is the forgotten part of the story:

After the weakening of Kievan Rus and its dismemberment into smaller principalities Ruthenian lands were gradually subjugated by the Balt Lithuanians. 1363 Kiev, along with other Ruthenian territories was annexed by the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

As a result of the Polish-Lithuanian union Kiev became part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. In 1494 the Polish king Alexander of the Jagiellonian dynasty gave the city Magdeburg Law. From 1569 Kiev was part of the Polish Crown.

During the 17th century Cossaks (Ukrainians) inhabiting the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth demanded recognition of their military status and national aspirations. They refused to be regarded as serfs and pressed for acceptance as third equal nation within the Commonwealth. Their petitions were repeatedly rejected - the Cossaks had nobody to intercede for them because nearly all Ukrainian nobility had become polonized and Catholic, turning away from their own people and Orthodox religion. In the Polish sejm (parliament) the interests of Ukrainian and Polish great landowners took precedence over interests of the state. This led to a series of violent and extremely bloody so-called Cossak rebellions, which shoud really be called Ukrainian wars of independence.

Having lost hope in the Polish sejm and king ever acceding to Ukrainian just demands, the Cossak hetman Bogdan Chmielnicki turned for help to the Tartars, and then - to the Tzar of Moscow. What the Cossaks had in mind was finding support in their ambition of founding a Ukrainian state. What they got was incorporation into the Duchy of Moscow and gradual but final enslavement.

In 1654 Chmielnicki had to agree to hand Kiev over to the Russian Tzar. Ukraine was split in half between the Russian Empire and the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth. In 1775 Tzarina Katherine had Zaporizhian Sich razed to the ground.

Zaporizhian Sich - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Official Russian historiography has served to support Moscow's claim to be the "descendant of Kievan Rus" and its ambition to "unify all Orthodox Russian lands" under the aegis of the Patriarch of Moscow. The fact that Belarusians and Ukrainians are distinctly separate nations speaking distincly different languages was and is denied.
Did you hear something about "Primary Chronicle" Madam? Or you read an alternative history only? Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by Potap; December 4th, 2012 at 11:32 AM.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 11:45 AM   #60
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Do not forget one fact. Japan has never been pleased with expansion of Europeans in Asia. Also Japan has never been pleased with Russian expansion in Far East. We have become neighbours of this country and they had no assurance, what if this expansion will be prolonged to the territory of Japan. This is why we can meet the bias to this expansion. I do not exclude the presence of some misunderstanding between natives and colonists. But this misunderstanding could be as well as within colony and between aboriginal population without Russian participation. If one have a bias, one can inflate it to the galactic scale. But there is no necessity to go far away for proofs of peaceful expansion to Siberia. No one ethnos which lived there before the coming of Russians was not destroyed, including "natives" of Kamchatka. Compare it to the situation in North America for example. By the way the expansion to Alaska was not so peaceful as expansion to Siberia. Contemporaries marked periodic collisions between Russian colonists and local American Indian population. So Russian history does not hide these facts.
Since the japanese I mentioned were in Russia unvoluntary and were "common people" I think there is little reason they should have any interest in distorting the picture of Russia. The more so, since, they reported to authorities, but not with the intention the reports should be published. If it had been for propaganda purpose it would have been a different matter. Plus it is not the only thing I have read about an unequal power situation in asiatic Russia, but an example I remembered. This is not to say anything about Russian colonisation being any worse - or better - than that of any other power.
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