Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > European History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

European History European History Forum - Western and Eastern Europe including the British Isles, Scandinavia, Russia


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 27th, 2012, 05:17 PM   #1

Da Yao's Avatar
Citizen
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 10
Basic questions about the Crusades


Hello everyone. I am a newcome here and I was always fascinated about the history of the Crusades. I just begin to read eassies from english reacources.
And there are several questions I found struggle about:

1. What is the difination of a Confraternal order, or any other similiar words. In chinese reacources there is only one word"骑士团“ means knighthood , but in english there are many words to represent such kind of organizations. Are they all means the same thing or they have different difination for each one?
And are they all mainly be organized by real knights or just some military clans gave themselves fancy names?

2. It is a very general idea(at least in my country) that most of the crusaders were second sons and illegitimate children from all the Europe who wish to search for fortune in the east.
Is that true or there really are something I should know about other than this.

3. Salahuddin had long been an almost perfect ideal character in any movies I watched and articles I read. Again, is there any more about him I need to know? Even just some entertaining details?

Thanks for read those questions. I really have no idea are they even deserve an answer or I just need to read more before ask. I will wait for the reaction and then deside should I post more questions.
Da Yao is offline  
Remove Ads
Old November 27th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #2

Da Yao's Avatar
Citizen
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 10

Ok ,there is another thing. I know this should sounds strange: If I lived at the time of the third Crusade, I will join it and go to east. So what will you suggest me to carry?
Da Yao is offline  
Old November 28th, 2012, 01:15 AM   #3

arras's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: Slovakia
Posts: 13,664

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Yao View Post
1. What is the difination of a Confraternal order, or any other similiar words. In chinese reacources there is only one word"骑士团“ means knighthood , but in english there are many words to represent such kind of organizations. Are they all means the same thing or they have different difination for each one?
And are they all mainly be organized by real knights or just some military clans gave themselves fancy names?
They are all very similar with some slight differences. Here is quick overview:

Chivalric order - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Yao View Post
2. It is a very general idea(at least in my country) that most of the crusaders were second sons and illegitimate children from all the Europe who wish to search for fortune in the east.
Is that true or there really are something I should know about other than this.
No it is not true. Wide variety of people participated in Crusades. From beggars all the way up to kings. Men and women, there was even "children's Crusade" believe it or not. Noblemen, commoners, clerics. You could see anybody on Crusade.

Children's Crusade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
arras is online now  
Old November 28th, 2012, 01:18 AM   #4

arras's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: Slovakia
Posts: 13,664

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Yao View Post
If I lived at the time of the third Crusade, I will join it and go to east. So what will you suggest me to carry?
Basically everything you could. Crusade usually took many years. People went there with their whole families, parts of household, animals, noblemen with their courts. It really depended on your social status and personal wealth.
arras is online now  
Old November 28th, 2012, 09:54 AM   #5

Sher Khan's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Apr 2012
From: Houston
Posts: 366

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Yao View Post
1. What is the difination of a Confraternal order, or any other similiar words. In chinese reacources there is only one word"骑士团“ means knighthood , but in english there are many words to represent such kind of organizations. Are they all means the same thing or they have different difination for each one?
And are they all mainly be organized by real knights or just some military clans gave themselves fancy names?
A confraternity was an officially recognized brotherhood, franchise or whatever made up usually of lay people - those who weren't ordained priests within the Church - for the purpose of supporting the Church or Christian works.

The many words we have usually describe the legal status of these organizations at that time, but in the end they were organizations of knights and their supporters. They included footsoldiers and mercenaries that weren't true knights, but its leaders were certainly knights who took temporary or lifelong oaths for the order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Yao View Post
2. It is a very general idea(at least in my country) that most of the crusaders were second sons and illegitimate children from all the Europe who wish to search for fortune in the east.
Is that true or there really are something I should know about other than this.
This was a common idea for a time everywhere, but recently we discover that most crusaders were people from all walks of life, and first sons and actual lords with substantial land and property were just as common as second sons. As much as it seems like a chance to get rich, going on crusade was a very costly endeavor that would bankrupt families just to support one person on campaign, with little guarantee they'd ever come back with riches if they came back at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Yao View Post
3. Salahuddin had long been an almost perfect ideal character in any movies I watched and articles I read. Again, is there any more about him I need to know? Even just some entertaining details?
Check out 'Arab Historians of the Crusades' by Francesco Gabrielli. It's a compilation of Arabic primary texts mostly with some of the sources having been personal friends or official chroniclers to Saladin.

Saladin has a reputation just like King Richard, and it's certainly rosy thanks to romantic ideas and writing, but just like King Richard he had flaws and instances where he seemed less perfect and honorable and more... human.
Sher Khan is offline  
Old November 28th, 2012, 10:46 AM   #6

Da Yao's Avatar
Citizen
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 10

Quote:
Originally Posted by arras View Post
They are all very similar with some slight differences. Here is quick overview:

Chivalric order - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



No it is not true. Wide variety of people participated in Crusades. From beggars all the way up to kings. Men and women, there was even "children's Crusade" believe it or not. Noblemen, commoners, clerics. You could see anybody on Crusade.

Children's Crusade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you for the information. I learn new things and view the history from different positions every minute when I stay in this forum.
Da Yao is offline  
Old November 28th, 2012, 10:59 AM   #7

Da Yao's Avatar
Citizen
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 10

Quote:
Originally Posted by arras View Post
Basically everything you could. Crusade usually took many years. People went there with their whole families, parts of household, animals, noblemen with their courts. It really depended on your social status and personal wealth.

The general set up I imagine is that I was a nobody from a decent at that time but not noble family. Craftsman or small merchant class might make sence. So basicly I should bring anything I can possibly afford. I would difinitely bring a crossbow and a really big shield. And of course I will buy a horse no matter how lame she is for saving my back. Forgive me for those knowledge came from Mount&blade.

Last edited by Da Yao; November 28th, 2012 at 11:10 AM.
Da Yao is offline  
Old November 28th, 2012, 11:08 AM   #8

Glowin's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 436

Saladin is my favourite historical figure. Great and enlightened leader in dark times.

There's a legend that during one the Crusades, Lionheart got the fever, and Saladin, being true to himself and all the ideal of knighthood that were so strange to Franks, send him ice and fruit.

He was tolerant to various religions (in fact, some of the highest positions on his court were held by Christians (non-Catholics) and Jews). And unlike some of the invading Franks, he was not a bloodthirsty tyrant. He was a merciful lord and commander.
Look into many sieges and conquered towns on how he let Europeans go (or stay) as they pleased, sometimes even without paying the ransom. Look how he never stole from his people, how he put everything he had into Crusades. He was just lord. And unlike many a crusader lord, he was well educated. And devout Moslem. And he was the most unlikely leader to begin with.

I can go on and on about him, but I'll stop. He was a great figure, and to this day he is revered in Islamic, Arabic and especially Kurdish lands as one of the greatest.

(and btw I have no ties to Islam, or any of the Asiatic peoples)
Glowin is offline  
Old November 28th, 2012, 11:32 AM   #9

Da Yao's Avatar
Citizen
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sher Khan View Post
A confraternity was an officially recognized brotherhood, franchise or whatever made up usually of lay people - those who weren't ordained priests within the Church - for the purpose of supporting the Church or Christian works.

The many words we have usually describe the legal status of these organizations at that time, but in the end they were organizations of knights and their supporters. They included footsoldiers and mercenaries that weren't true knights, but its leaders were certainly knights who took temporary or lifelong oaths for the order.



This was a common idea for a time everywhere, but recently we discover that most crusaders were people from all walks of life, and first sons and actual lords with substantial land and property were just as common as second sons. As much as it seems like a chance to get rich, going on crusade was a very costly endeavor that would bankrupt families just to support one person on campaign, with little guarantee they'd ever come back with riches if they came back at all.



Check out 'Arab Historians of the Crusades' by Francesco Gabrielli. It's a compilation of Arabic primary texts mostly with some of the sources having been personal friends or official chroniclers to Saladin.

Saladin has a reputation just like King Richard, and it's certainly rosy thanks to romantic ideas and writing, but just like King Richard he had flaws and instances where he seemed less perfect and honorable and more... human.
Those information save me a lot of time. Thank you.
I just read yesterday that the Crusades did not really bring the Europe much furtune and technology. In fact as you said most people never came back. And basicly a huge potion of the treasures they made in the east were never bring back to Europe and enrich their homeland.
This is totally different from what I learnt and you can say this shocks me and break some of my fancy imaginations.

Then I watched a documentry about the Crusades, it mentioned that Saladin involved in assassination actions. I think assassination might be a part of Arab politic culture at that time.
Da Yao is offline  
Old November 28th, 2012, 12:24 PM   #10

arras's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: Slovakia
Posts: 13,664

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Yao View Post
I would difinitely bring a crossbow and a really big shield. And of course I will buy a horse no matter how lame she is for saving my back. Forgive me for those knowledge came from Mount&blade.
Learning about history from computer game is not really wise. They are nice for making you interested in to something but what you see in them, take it all with grain of salt.

If you would be craftsmen, I would advise you to take your tools. Crusade on campaign needs lot of things: repair damaged armour and weapons, horseshoes, clothes etc...

Good craftsman would definitely find himself to be very useful.

If you would be in to the fighting part however (which usually was more rare event on Crusade) you would take best weapons and armour you could afford. Horse might be plus but unless you were very, very rich, you would not be able to afford battle horse. So your "horse" would probably be mule crying your things around. You would also want to take servant or two.

Also you would probably wanted to attach yourself under some leader and his unit. Noblemen or cleric. Probably your local lord.
arras is online now  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > European History

Tags
basic, crusades, questions


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Basic Training Through The Ages CrowBag War and Military History 25 November 2nd, 2012 04:45 PM
Basic Cold War question Alfred001 General History 37 August 17th, 2012 09:45 PM
What is a Basic-Level Category? coberst Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 0 May 2nd, 2009 09:13 AM
Hi im new, have a basic question Shanks General History 13 March 17th, 2009 06:08 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.