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Old December 6th, 2012, 06:22 AM   #11
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A Goya's paint to illustrate a war between frenchs and spanishs.
Did Goya use his art to illustrate what the guerilla did to the afrancescados ?
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Old December 6th, 2012, 06:44 AM   #12
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A Goya's paint to illustrate a war between frenchs and spanishs.
Did Goya use his art to illustrate what the guerilla did to the afrancescados ?
Do you mean the traitors and lavish collaborationists with the brutal invaders?

Click the image to open in full size.

Actually, he did, and hardly just him.

Such stuff was as overtly and proudly acknowledged as the fate of the Nazi collaborators would be a century and a half later,

Last edited by sylla1; December 6th, 2012 at 06:55 AM.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 01:21 PM   #13

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Napoleon's laws were quite harsh on women. The man tended to get the most out of divorce and adultery was almost always blamed on the woman.
ya definitely one of his lesser traits that he was very anti-woman in a lot of his outlooks. he did try to put into extra legislation that further limited the rights of woman into the civil code yet was blocked from doing so by the tribunal set up to write it. yet he was hardly unique for this outlook and was a common one at the time. in any case it shouldn't be forgotten that in his education reforms he also set higher level education for woman. while the subjects on offer were not much compared to men but they were better then they had received before.

this here is a great extract from an english woman who lived in france between the peace period by Anne Plumptre, daughter of the president of Queens college Cambridge.
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"i was perfectly free as i am in england, i went whither-soever i was desirous of going and was uniformly received with the same politeness and hospitality as while peace subsisted between the two countries. i never witnessed harsh measure of the government but towards the turbulent and factious; i saw everywhere works of public utility going forward; industries, commerce and the arts encouraged; and i could not consider the people as unhappy, or the government as odious... i have found speech everywhere free in france as in england: i have heard persons deliver the sentiments on Bonaparte and his government, whether favorable or unfavorable, without the least reserve; and that not in private companies only, among friends all known to each other, but in the most public manner, and in the most mixed sociaties, in diligences, and at tables-d'hote, where none could be previously acquainted with the character or sentiments of those whom they were conversing, and where someone among the company might be a spy for the police for anything that the others knew to the contrary yet this idea was no restraint upon them"- A Narrative of a Three Years' Residence in France...from the year 1803 to 1805 (1810), III, 324,400.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 02:29 PM   #14
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ya definitely one of his lesser traits that he was very anti-woman in a lot of his outlooks. he did try to put into extra legislation that further limited the rights of woman into the civil code yet was blocked from doing so by the tribunal set up to write it. yet he was hardly unique for this outlook and was a common one at the time. in any case it shouldn't be forgotten that in his education reforms he also set higher level education for woman. while the subjects on offer were not much compared to men but they were better then they had received before.

this here is a great extract from an english woman who lived in france between the peace period by Anne Plumptre, daughter of the president of Queens college Cambridge.
Yup, a nice quote from the poster "Massena" from a pro-Napoleonic forum elsewhere, right?

Guess you haven't read the original source yet, huh?

Not that the desperate apologetic resource of using this cherrypicked red herring passage from the personal travel experience of an English fiction writer (BTW a well known enthusiastic Buonapartist fan) during the early rule of Monsieur Buonaparte as a Consul would be particularly relevant for any analysis of the dire social conditions of the populations of Europe victim of the Napoleonic carnages & yoke, of course.

Last edited by sylla1; December 6th, 2012 at 02:36 PM.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 02:30 PM   #15

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To answer the OP: Yes, as long as you didn't live in Spain or Russia.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 02:37 PM   #16
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To answer the OP: Yes, as long as you didn't live in Spain or Russia.
Guess you have any relevant hard evidence for such categorical assessment, huh?
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Old December 6th, 2012, 03:53 PM   #17

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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
Yup, a nice quote from the poster "Massena" from a pro-Napoleonic forum elsewhere, right?

Guess you haven't read the original source yet, huh?

Not that the desperate apologetic resource of using this cherrypicked red herring passage from the personal travel experience of an English fiction writer (BTW a well known enthusiastic Buonapartist fan) during the early rule of Monsieur Buonaparte as a Consul would be particularly relevant for any analysis of the dire social conditions of the populations of Europe victim of the Napoleonic carnages & yoke, of course.
i was just reading some parts from it now, quite interesting actually and will certainly download it once i get a kindle
A narrative of three years' residence in France, principally in the southern ... - Anne Plumptre - Google Books
its a primary source coming from someone who was actually there at the time and visited the country, most certainly a very pro account and probably some cherry picking in it yet that doesn't change the facts of many of the good things she has to say

i guess i was being a bit silly to try posting a quote on the conditions of france from someone who was there at the in a thread asking about the conditions of france at the time.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 03:56 PM   #18

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i guess i was being a bit silly to try posting a quote on the conditions of france from someone who was there at the in a thread asking about the conditions of france at the time.
Indeed! What's the big idea of posting evidence!
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Old December 6th, 2012, 04:14 PM   #19
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i was just reading some parts from it now, quite interesting actually and will certainly download it once i get a kindle
A narrative of three years' residence in France, principally in the southern ... - Anne Plumptre - Google Books
its a primary source coming from someone who was actually there at the time and visited the country, most certainly a very pro account and probably some cherry picking in it yet that doesn't change the facts of many of the good things she has to say

i guess i was being a bit silly to try posting a quote on the conditions of france from someone who was there at the in a thread asking about the conditions of france at the time.
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Indeed! What's the big idea of posting evidence!
Yup, incredibly interesting if sociology is the last thing you may have in your mind.

Ms Plumptre was just a fiction writer; not to mention an enthusiastic Napoleonic fan; as late as 1810 she was still denying the historicity of the well attested massacre of the Turkish prisoners in Jaffa during the Napoleonic campaign of Syria!
Source: http://books.google.com.mx/books?id=...nce%22&f=false
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She became well known as a supporter of Napoleon; in 1810 she declared that she would welcome him if he invaded England, because he would do away with the aristocracy and give the country a better government.
Source:
Anne_Plumptre Anne_Plumptre


It's clear that so naively & apologetically pretending that this biased red herring could be considered any indication on the life of the average person under the Napoleonic yoke (the OP) was anything but silly or accidental, either here or in the original forum http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=86615.

Would you like to quote Jane Fonda as evidence of the sociology of Hanoi during the Vietnam war too ?

As usual, desperate times call for desperate measures.

Last edited by sylla1; December 6th, 2012 at 04:38 PM.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 04:41 PM   #20

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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
Yup, incredibly interesting if sociology is the last thing you may have in your mind.

Ms Plumptre was just a fiction writer; not to mention an enthusiastic Napoleonic fan; as late as 1810 she was still denying the historicity of the well attested massacre of the Turkish prisoners in Jaffa during the Napoleonic campaign of Syria!
Source: Something New - Anne Plumptre - Google Books
Source: Anne Plumptre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It's clear that so naively & apologetically pretending that this biased red herring could be considered any indication on the life of the average person under the Napoleonic yoke (the OP) was anything but silly or accidental, either here or in the original forum.

As usual, desperate times call for desperate measures.
Adrian Goldsworthy wrote a fictional story about a soldier in Wellingtons army, does that logically mean that all his other books on roman history are also fictional?

Ms Plumptre wrote a number of fictional books how is that to prove that every book she ever wrote is then also logical fiction. i say good for her on her pro view of Napoleon. she had far more experience of what he and france were like being that she had been there for a long period and even met Napoleon for a short while which makes her more reliable then the many biased authors at the time who made napoleon out to be a monster despite having never personally met the man or traveled through france as Ms Plumptre did.

a red herring you call this? the OP asked did Napoleon make the lives of average people better, you made your argument that it did not and i for the sake of debate presented a quotation which argues that he did make the lives of average french people better, it seems a pretty standard way to debate and was by no means any red herring as it does seem pretty relevant to the topic.
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