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Old December 6th, 2012, 05:00 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by irishcrusader95 View Post
Adrian Goldsworthy wrote a fictional story about a soldier in Wellingtons army, does that logically mean that all his other books on roman history are also fictional?

Ms Plumptre wrote a number of fictional books how is that to prove that every book she ever wrote is then also logical fiction. i say good for her on her pro view of Napoleon. she had far more experience of what he and france were like being that she had been there for a long period and even met Napoleon for a short while which makes her more reliable then the many biased authors at the time who made napoleon out to be a monster despite having never personally met the man or traveled through france as Ms Plumptre did.

a red herring you call this? the OP asked did Napoleon make the lives of average people better, you made your argument that it did not and i for the sake of debate presented a quotation which argues that he did make the lives of average french people better, it seems a pretty standard way to debate and was by no means any red herring as it does seem pretty relevant to the topic.
Yup, desperate times call for desperate measures, either here or in the other forum.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 05:05 PM   #22

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Yup, desperate times call for desperate measures, either here or in the other forum.
which forum is that?

why don't you perhaps provide your own sources to show that Ms Plumptre was incorrect in the quote i provided and that things were more oppressive and tyrannical then she presented. i gave my view backed up by a source now you do yours.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 05:36 PM   #23
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which forum is that?

why don't you perhaps provide your own sources to show that Ms Plumptre was incorrect in the quote i provided and that things were more oppressive and tyrannical then she presented. i gave my view backed up by a source now you do yours.
You can't be serious.

I have already shown extensive evidence on the absolute unreliability of your actually irrelevant source (irrelevant at least for the OP)

Have you actually any source on the effects of perpetual warfare and the Continental Blockade even over the French themselves?
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Old December 7th, 2012, 01:39 AM   #24
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Click the image to open in full size.
Less painful at least. And remember the French only wanted a free to pass to reach Portugal. The fact that the Spanish started shooting at the French at some point is because of their own ignorance. Cause they thought they were invaded.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 01:41 AM   #25
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Do you mean the traitors and lavish collaborationists with the brutal invaders?

Click the image to open in full size.

Actually, he did, and hardly just him.

Such stuff was as overtly and proudly acknowledged as the fate of the Nazi collaborators would be a century and a half later,
Calling those who supported the French is not really Sylla like is it? Why is supporting a much more enlightened regime as the French Empire being a traitor? Do you remember the situation before French influence? Strict inquisition, absolute power for both nobles and the king and very few freedom.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 01:44 AM   #26
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Yup, a nice quote from the poster "Massena" from a pro-Napoleonic forum elsewhere, right?

Guess you haven't read the original source yet, huh?

Not that the desperate apologetic resource of using this cherrypicked red herring passage from the personal travel experience of an English fiction writer (BTW a well known enthusiastic Buonapartist fan) during the early rule of Monsieur Buonaparte as a Consul would be particularly relevant for any analysis of the dire social conditions of the populations of Europe victim of the Napoleonic carnages & yoke, of course.
You are impossible Sylla, so you can't name anything good about Napoleon? Sorry, but you really keep confirming that you are the one that is biased by the hatred you have towards Napoleon. He died 200 years ago, why can't you just have a neutral discussion?
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Old December 7th, 2012, 01:45 AM   #27
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To answer the OP: Yes, as long as you didn't live in Spain or Russia.
Well Russia was never occupied anyways. And the situation would most likely have been vastly improved under French rule.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 02:58 AM   #28

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Without getting caught in the sheer rhetoric and polemic of the debate by certain members that always pops up, I'll add my few cents.

What constituted an 'average person'? If you consider - as already pointed out here - the Peninsular War, then for the lives of those he invaded, certainly not. For the lives of those under him? Maybe. It's hard to say. Political consolidation and general (a transference from the political to the social, say) stability didn't necessary mean a 'better' life. Again, it's hard not to go into semantics here, for the pure problem that 'better' poses.

Did he improve living standards in France, generaly? Yes, overall. But did these render the lives of some in that community - notably women, but slaves too, for instance, if we're not simply talking about metropolitan France - necessarily better? I think not, no. Dissection, as painful and as longwinded as it sometimes may be, at other times proves more than worth the labour. And I think here is one of those areas where it is, indeed, called for.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 03:44 AM   #29
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A person, who is responsible for the deaths of millions of people and who himself said:
Quote:
1. "I shall bury the world beneath my ruin"
2. "A man like me cares little about losing the lives of a million men."
3."A rotten old whore whom I shall treat as I please" (in reference to Europe)
obviously had serious mental problems, even if he was briliant military genius.

source: The House of Ice: Napoleon and Hitler - A Comparison and Contrast
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Old December 7th, 2012, 03:49 AM   #30

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Originally Posted by At Each Kilometer View Post
A person, who is responsible for the deaths of millions of people and who himself said:

obviously had serious mental problems, even if he was briliant military genius.

source: The House of Ice: Napoleon and Hitler - A Comparison and Contrast
Do you have any PRIMARY sources for those quotes?

The source you did provide, seems... well... not altogether reliable:

Quote:
"My name is James Edmondson. I've been an amateur historian ever since I picked up my first book on the American Civil War. Although I try to keep the articles in the House of Ice as historically accurate as possible, I may sometimes add incorrect, misquoted, or controversial material to the indexes..."

Source: http://houseofice.tripod.com/about.shtml

Last edited by Rongo; December 7th, 2012 at 03:55 AM.
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