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Old December 6th, 2012, 01:50 PM   #11

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I only know very few additional titles, sorry N

Doge: derived from the Byzantine Dux(common title in several Italian maritime republics, but basically elective monarchies)

Boyar: an aristocratic title used in Eastern European countries(Walacchia, Moldavia and Medieval Russian states)
In Walacchia they formed the upper substratum, inferior only to the Voivode and held a very high degree of autonomy

Giudice:: from the latin Iudices(Judge), the title bestowed to the rulers of the Sardinian Giudicati during the Middle Ages; it was an hereditary title, so we have dynasties of Giudici(they were de facto kings)
I forgot about the Doge. I thought that was a title specific to Venice, was it used in other republics too?
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Old December 6th, 2012, 01:52 PM   #12

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Here's a confusing one for you. British titles don't have the rank of Count. The equivalent to a count is an earl. But the female equivalent of the title of Earl is Countess!
My point exactly

Any idea how this came about? Maybe a British Earl married a continental Countess and she kept the title, which eventually became tradition.

I do prefer Earl as a title though. If I remember correctly it comes from the Anglo-Saxon Eorl meaning warriors or nobles depending on the context. It says much about their society that a single word could encompass both.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 01:54 PM   #13

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Speaking of which, it is too bad that Thane fell out of use.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 01:56 PM   #14

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My point exactly

Any idea how this came about? Maybe a British Earl married a continental Countess and she kept the title, which eventually became tradition.

I do prefer Earl as a title though. If I remember correctly it comes from the Anglo-Saxon Eorl meaning warriors or nobles depending on the context. It says much about their society that a single word could encompass both.
I'm not sure how the Earl/Countess situation came about, but the title of Earl ultimately derives from the Scandinavian Jarl, I believe - or maybe they both have the same roots.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 01:58 PM   #15

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I'm not sure how the Earl/Countess situation came about, but the title of Earl ultimately derives from the Scandinavian Jarl, I believe.
Well Eorl and Jarl share the same root and despite the different spellings the pronunciations weren't that different either. The Anglo-Saxons and the Danes shared much to begin with and of course it would end up mixing again under such men as Cnut Cynning
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Old December 6th, 2012, 02:05 PM   #16

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I tell you what though, European military titles aren't quite as colourful as some Eastern Asian ones, which were basically made up on the spot. The Japanese "Shogun" derives from "sei'i-tai shogun", or "Great Barbarian Subduing General".
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Old December 6th, 2012, 02:08 PM   #17

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I forgot about the Doge. I thought that was a title specific to Venice, was it used in other republics too?
The title Doge was used in the Republic of Venice, in the Republic of Genoa(a maritime republic/empire just like Venice) and in the Duchy of Amalfi( de facto a maritime republic, the premiere power in the Mediterranean Sea before the rise of Genoa and Venice)...Wikipedia also lists the small town of Senarica: apparently an indipendent republic from 1343 to 1797 and one of the smallest states in Europe( around 300 citizens) until its annexation to the Kingdom of Naples

The maritime Republic of Ragusa(Croatia) was ruled by a Rettore(basically a Doge)

Some Italian city-states on the Tyrrhenian coast were ruled by Ipati(singular form: Ipato, English: Hypatos), a Byzantine title equivalent to the Latin Consul

Last edited by M.E.T.H.O.D.; December 6th, 2012 at 02:15 PM.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 02:09 PM   #18

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Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
I tell you what though, European military titles aren't quite as colourful as some Eastern Asian ones, which were basically made up on the spot. The Japanese "Shogun" derives from "sei'i-tai shogun", or "Great Barbarian Subduing General".
Ahhh the hours of fun that can be had with literal translations.

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Old December 6th, 2012, 02:25 PM   #19
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Lithuania was a Grand Duchy but I don't know if it was actually part of Russian territory, or whether the Tsar of Russia was also the monarch of Lithuania, the same way that Georges I-IV of England were also the Electors of Hanover.
  • First, there were no titles for nobility in Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth. Every one member of the gentry was equal according to low. The only titles legally allowed were connected to the function of individual nobleman eg Hetman (Marshall), Voyevoda (Leader of gentry in area called voyevodsip).This title were not transferable to next of kin.There were same “Princely” titles which originated from Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Prior to Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) which were accepted but still the lowest noblemen consider himself equal to such Prince.
  • All other titles as Count, Baron ect used in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth were of foreign origin and usually were titles from Holy Roman Empire and were not recognised by Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth low.
  • The title of Grand Duke was a title of the Ruler of Grand Duchy of Lithuania. After unification of Poland and Lithuania, this title belonged to King of Poland who was automatically Grand Duke of Lithuania. After dismembering of Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, this title as well as title King of Poland was transferred to Tsar of Russia (for same time at least)
  • Russian title Grand Duke usually belonged to closest family of Russian Tsar eg Grand Duke Constantine
    Grand_Duke_Constantine_Pavlovich_of_Russia Grand_Duke_Constantine_Pavlovich_of_Russia
I hope that this will clarify the controversy of this thread.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 02:31 PM   #20

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Well I'm out of my depth here, if there is one thing that you Europeans (and I know, supposedly you Brits aren't European - but for the purpose of this thread your titles and nobility are every bit as confusing as the Continental ones) do well is obfuscate any semblance of clarity to the outside observer regarding your titles and rankings of landed nobility.
Brits are as much European as Japanese are Asian...

One thing about those titles was that they were rooted in an honoured past. They had to sound legitimate, as in old.
"Count" comes from Latin comes, originally someting like the "companions", best known as the the commander of a late Roman army of comitatenses, basically a mobile field army as opposed to the stationary border troops of the limitanei who were led by a dux limitis. "Duke" comes from dux.

Similarly, "Archduchy" was a title (re) invented by Rudolf IV of Habsburg, duke (by then ) of Austria, as a consolation for missing out in the "Golden bull" of 1356 by an emperor from the rivaling House of Luxemburg. The Golden Bull established the seven electorates of the Holy Roman Empire. (The seven prince-electors would choose the emperor.) Rudolf simply declared he had all the rights of a prince elector. A fancy title was needed and "archduchy" was the closest you could get to being a kingdom, being directly vassalized to the king or emperor only and having the right of primogeniture. Originally it was used by the lords of Austrasia, who aspired to be - and briefly became - kings, in the desintegrating Merovingian Frankish empire around 750CE.

Later it was the status of the part of of Lotharingia, the Middle Kingdom of the treaty of Verdun (843CE) that was annexed by West Francia, but the title had gotten out of use with the split of Lotharingia into upper and lower Lotharingia, though the dukes of Brabant and Gelre in the Low Countries aspired to be archdukes. The difference was they asked permission from the emperor -and got none, whereas the Habsburg elevated themselves to the status - and became the emperors.

Last edited by Zeno; December 6th, 2012 at 02:38 PM.
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