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Old January 18th, 2013, 06:32 AM   #231

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My grandfather was deported in to Germany for force labour in 1944 (after anti-nazi rebellion in Slovakia). He was carpenter and as such of high value to Germans so got lucky to get in to small size family workshop producing wooden aircraft propellers. He told me family was nice to them and treated them well. They had several daughters and when he got liberated and was preparing to go home one of the daughters proposed him marriage. He said she came to him and offered him a ring. But he refused, he had girlfriend at home (my grandmother).

However Soviet POWs which were working there were of less favourable mood and after liberation they wanted to extract revenge on German owner and his family. My grandfather with his Slovak friend went to US unit which liberated them and asked them to protect Germans. US unit happened to have Slovak cook (there is sizeable Slovak community living in USA) so they became friends easily. He supplied them with food and Americans gave them even confiscated car for return trip (which was confiscated by Soviets on the way later).

Anyway, those are some personal family stories. Young man were indeed in short supply in post war Germany and Soviets were not in exactly forgiving mood. At last rank and file, not mentioning POWs.
Beautiful story
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Old January 18th, 2013, 06:40 AM   #232

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Very nice story, Arras.

I do enjoy following along with these threads, although I lament they seem to drive off our Russian posters

I'll just say that it shouldn't come as a shock, after 20 million of your citizens are killed, and the apocalypse literally brought to your doorstep, that your soldiers would behave like a bunch of ravenous dogs. And that you would do whatever it takes the next 70 years to make sure it never happens again.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 08:03 AM   #233

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Very nice story, Arras.

I do enjoy following along with these threads, although I lament they seem to drive off our Russian posters

I'll just say that it shouldn't come as a shock, after 20 million of your citizens are killed, and the apocalypse literally brought to your doorstep, that your soldiers would behave like a bunch of ravenous dogs. And that you would do whatever it takes the next 70 years to make sure it never happens again.
What do you mean by that last sentence if I may ask.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 08:17 AM   #234

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Opressed Octopussy again. Don't be funny: you've swallowed up other nations land and built the largest state on earth claiming you're beseiged and need to defend yourself.
This is a part of Russian mentality. We need a kick to do something.


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The someone being president Medviediev, I assumed what he states publicly about the military doctrine of RF isn't his subjective opinion.
Did you read the doctrine?

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Who are you talking, the current US administration? You must be kidding. They couldn't have been more obliging, they think you're a teddy bear who "just needs to be understood".
Oh, you underestimate American establishment. AntiRussian paranoia still rules there. While the candidate for American president speaks " Russia is the enemy number one ", while their senate signs the antiRussian bills and while their moders combat with Russian trolls, China slowly replaces them on the throne of the superpower number one.

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Talking psychology, there's something called psychological projection. No offence, but you're all imperialistically bonkers and project the desire on everyone else. You'd rather live from hand to mouth, tilling a potato plot than give up basking in "superpower status". And so, 700 billion goes down the drain.
But you have not objected me when I have explained to you the reasons of the Polish hatred towards Russians.

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Potap, are you explaining the 1938 serial execution of 111,091 - over one hundred thousand - Polish civilians (and some Ukrainians and Belarusians accused of Polish sympathies) by the Polish conquest of Moscow in 1610???

Is that why Stalin ordered the execution of about 22,00 Polish officers of the reserve in 1941?

You know, you and your mates from inoforum.ru and such have ridiculed me for remembering and mentioning Soviet genocide which my relatives and close friends' parents experienced first hand. "Get over it" etc.

Now it turns out the wound left by the Polish burning of Moscow in 1610 remains livid. I see. Stalin was obviously beset by nightmares of what had happened 320 years back. Result: Polish Operation and Katyń Massacre. I suggest you inform historians of this ingenious and novel explanation.
I think our Ekaterina took into account wars of XVII century when she took decision to participate in partitions of Poland. But Stalin had experience of the Soviet-Polish war and the experience of many conflicts with Poland during the interwar period. I repeat, a history is very long thing and everything has preconditions.

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Sure, do reveal it - don't keep such groundbreaking information to yourself.
Do you want to transform this thread into the tiresome story about the whole history of all Russian-Polish wars? This thread is about German sufferings not about Russian.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 08:31 AM   #235

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Oh please, not that old crap again. For the upteenth time:

The issue was finally settled in 2004, where a joint team of Polish and Russian historians (prof. Waldemar Rezmer and prof. Zbigniew Karpus from Nicolaus Copernicus University in Toruń and prof. Gennady Matveyev from Moscow State University), after reexamining documents from Polish and Russian archives published their results (printed in Russia by Federal Agency for Russian Archives).

Their findings show that the number of Russian POWs can be estimated at between 80,000 and 85,000, and that the number of deaths in the camps can be estimated from 16,000 (Karpus, Rezmer) to 20,000 (Matveyev). Existing documents and proofs does not also confirm thesis made by many Russian historians that Russian POWs were specially exterminated in Polish camps because of their nationality, religion or other issues.[1][9] They also show that the main cause of death were various illnesses and epidemics (influenza, typhus, cholera and dysentery), noting that these diseases also took a heavy toll among fighting soldiers and the civilian population.

A similar number of Polish POWs - about 20,000 - died in Soviet and Lithuanian camps.

Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919

About 20,000 Red Army soldiers taken prisoner during the 1920 invasion of Poland died of disease and poor sanitary conditions (not to mention that - according to Issak Babel - most suffered from syphilis)

About 20,000 Polish prisoners of the same war died in Soviet and Lithuanian camps at the same time and for the same reasons.

Polish authorities naver made any secret of hunger and epidemics after the war and the terrible conditions in camps. Polish camps for Soviet POWS were open to routine inspections by Red Cross delegations.

When Katyń Massacre documents were published during pieriestroika, some Russians suddenly recalled the 1920 POWS in a pathetic attempt to justify Stalin's order to exterminate Polish prisoners of war.

Source documents published in 2004 made mincemeat of it:

W.Rezmer, Z.Karpus, G.Matvyeyev, "Krasnoarmieitsy v polskom plenu v 1919–1922 g. Sbornik dokumentov i materialov", Federal Agency for Russian Archives, Moscow 2004
Thanks for your interesting information, but I already said to you and I'll repeat. Russian historians were dissatisfied with this teamwork. You have taken about 200 thousands POWs, 83,5 thousands of them have died. A part have died in your camps according to the causes which are specified in your post, but the biggest part was killed by your soldiers and officers. Confess, you just do not want to recognize this crime!

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All neighbours have unpleasant memoirs.
Said the German to the Jew.
Said the Pole to Chech. Said the Czech to Slovak. Said Frenchman to Briton. Said Briton to the Irish. Said the Turk to the Armenian. Said the Japanese to the Chinese. Said the American to the Mexican ..... to be continued.

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Jesus Christ. Potap, such a book has long been published - all the names, all biograms, all details. Everyone knows all there is to know about the men shot in Katyń - some were professional officers (like my mum's uncle), but most were just normal educated people - lawyers,engineers, doctors, teachers, artists, writers (- officers of the reserve, conscripted in 1939)

Besides, nothing was "incriminated to them" - there were no investigations, no trials, they were shot en masse on Berya's order of 5 March 1940.
As far as I know the majority of them were condemned by Special troika.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 01:32 PM   #236

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Thanks for your interesting information, but I already said to you and I'll repeat. Russian historians were dissatisfied with this teamwork. You have taken about 200 thousands POWs, 83,5 thousands of them have died. A part have died in your camps according to the causes which are specified in your post, but the biggest part was killed by your soldiers and officers. Confess, you just do not want to recognize this crime!
There was no crime.

There was no order of mass extermination of Bolshevik POWs. None.

There are no historical grounds whatsoever to even compare these events:

- 1921 death of Bolskevik POWS (and same number of Polish POWS) from post-war epidemics

-1940 serial execution of all Polish POWS (over 21,000) on the order approved and signed by the Soviet Politburo and J.Stalin

As for "Russian historians were dissatisfied with this teamwork", it's a funny story. In the fundamental volume of Katyń documents (Priedislowije rossijskoj storony, in "Krasnoarmiejcy w polskomu plenu etc.) published in Moscow 2004 G. Matwiejew states: "about 18-20 thousand Red Army men died in Polish capticity" (p.14)

And what did he say in 2010? "One can now calculate that about 25 -28 thousand died"

So what has happened betwen 2004 and 2010 to make him change his mind? Whence this sudden multiplication of figures? Have some new, unknown documents come to light?

None at all. Matvieyev is just responding to political demand - Mr.Putin's anti-Katyń rhethoric which requires some "Polish crime" to counterbalance the Katyń Massacre. And of course a more impressive figure - topping the number of shot Polish officers - is now requested.

And for some realistic background to the time when your and our prisoners of war diied go to the 1993 volume of declassified documents ed. by Krivoshev (Grif sekretnosti sniat...)He states that in 1920 of the 5 milion registered Red Army soldiers 207 thousand died of typhoid fever, dysentery and other epidemic diseases.

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As far as I know the majority of them were condemned by Special troika.
No offence, but you don't know much about it. I recommend prof. Natalia Liebiedieva - a very professional historian.

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Said the Pole to Chech. Said the Czech to Slovak. Said Frenchman to Briton. Said Briton to the Irish. Said the Turk to the Armenian. Said the Japanese to the Chinese. Said the American to the Mexican ..... to be continued.
Nope, there's no equivalence of guilt between these who gassed and these who ware gassed, these shooting in back of the head and those shot in the head.

There's a good British saying "misery likes company" - one could also say "shame likes company". Hence Mr. P's talk of "our shared shame" at Katyń (I just loved this ) Stop this desperate grasping at straws, just face it.

And btw I rejoice to say more and more Russians are doing it. A mate told me just today an absolutely splendid new history of Russia has been published - "Istoria Rossiji - XX wiek" ed. by Andie Zubov from MGIMO. I can't wait to get a Polish translation. You've got some good and honest historians over there - just switch off the mainstream propaganda and do some reading.

Last edited by antonina; January 18th, 2013 at 01:49 PM.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 03:04 PM   #237
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I'll just say that it shouldn't come as a shock, after 20 million of your citizens are killed, and the apocalypse literally brought to your doorstep, that your soldiers would behave like a bunch of ravenous dogs.
But in the end, it's nothing but a man in front of a woman having the power to rape her and deciding to do so.

I think that this is a crime, no matter what the circumstances are.

You can certainly argue that he Nazi murderers were worse, but this isn't a very high standard.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 03:32 PM   #238

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Look around you at your fellow citizens and the people you went to school with.

Now imagine an out of control government has given them the power of life and death over a population nobody gives a damn about.

Scary isnt it!

How many of the people that you know are there that you wouldnt trust with a match in an empty house or left alone with a drunk woman?

Congratulations, conscription means that these citizen soldiers are representing your nation.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 06:01 PM   #239

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An important point should be considered in this issue: rapes by Red Army soldiers took place even with liberated women from concentrating camps.
Red Army troops raped even Russian women as they freed them from camps - Telegraph

So the problem had very deep roots, probably cultural and psychological.


I could not read the entire thread, and maybe something I commented was repeated before.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 08:58 PM   #240

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Payback for the 14Million soviets killed.
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