Joseph Stalin - Page 2 - Historum

vid · June 4th, 2009, 09:14 AM

There are still extant arrest-lists with over 40'000 names signed personally by Stalin.

GULAG was created in 1930 as a part of Stalin's "solution" to peasant problem by power (as opposed to Bukharin who wanted to strenghten NEP free market system and solve problem "politically"), that eventually gradated into forcible collectivization. You can't directly blame Stalin for people daying during the great famine, it is more complicated than that, but he surely carries a good part of responsibility. What you can blame directly on Stalin (and his henchmen) is the resettlement of kulaks to far east, during which great many died.

I can't understand how anyone can even try to blame great terror (starting in 1935 after Kirov dead, and culminating in 1937) on the system as such. After collectivization was finished in 1933, terror ended, and everyone was happy about that. There was no inherent push towards another terror in the system. It was mostly Stalin's initiative to murder or send to GULAGs millions of people, including almost every single old bolshevik, to strenghten his "tsardom".

I'd suggest to read couple of books about Stalin from Roy Medvedev, I find him the most balanced author.

Inspiration · June 4th, 2009, 09:34 AM

There has been many debates over who was the worst, Stalin or Hitler.

Total Science · June 4th, 2009, 09:36 AM

I love how Holocaust denial is acceptable but claiming maps of Antarctica are genuine is speculative...LOL.

**Pericles** · June 4th, 2009, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Total Science

I love how Holocaust denial is acceptable but claiming maps of Antarctica are genuine is speculative...LOL.

No one denied the Holocaust in this thread. The original poster asked a question with an open mind, and a reasonable discussion ensued. There is a world of difference between that, and evangelizing a position which you are already convinced is true.

And if you must know, we did have a real Holocaust denier last year, and he was banned inside of a week, once his agenda became clear.

Total Science · June 4th, 2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pericles

No one denied the Holocaust in this thread.

The Ukrainian famine was an engineered holocaust.

**Pericles** · June 4th, 2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Total Science

The Ukrainian famine was an engineered holocaust.

And no one denied it. In fact, the OP specifically asked for proof that Stalin WAS responsible:

Quote:

I'm not a historian. I'd like to ask people here is he absolutely wrong, or is he certainly right? If he's wrong, can you provide unbiased links to proof that Stalin was indeed responsible for over 10 million (some claim upto 90 million) deaths. I believe that Stalin was responsible, but as a non-historian, I have no unbiased back up.

Your reading comprehension cannot possibly be that bad?

Total Science · June 4th, 2009, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pericles

And no one denied it. In fact, the OP specifically asked for proof that Stalin WAS responsible:

It is obvious that Stalin was responsible for EVERYTHING that went on in the Soviet Union.

He hired Ezhova. He hired Beria.

Saying Stalin was innocent is like saying Hitler was innocent.

**Pericles** · June 4th, 2009, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Total Science

It is obvious that Stalin was responsible for EVERYTHING that went on in the Soviet Union.

He hired Uzhova. He hired Beria.

Saying Stalin was innocent is like saying Hitler was innocent.

Again, show me where anyone in this thread said that Stalin was innocent.

Total Science · June 4th, 2009, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pericles

Again, show me where anyone in this thread said that Stalin was innocent.

What do you think responsibility means?

If it doesn't refer to guilt and innocence then I'm well confused.

**Pericles** · June 4th, 2009, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Total Science

What do you think responsibility means?

If it doesn't refer to guilt and innocence then I'm well confused.

::sigh:: I know this is pointless, but ...

Here is the quote from the OP again. Pay close attention to the parts in bold:

Quote:

I'm not a historian. I'd like to ask people here is he absolutely wrong, or is he certainly right? If he's wrong, can you provide unbiased links to proof that Stalin was indeed responsible for over 10 million (some claim up to 90 million) deaths. I believe that Stalin was responsible, but as a non-historian, I have no unbiased back up.

The OP is: 1) saying they believe that Stalin WAS responsible, and 2) asking what evidence there is to support that belief. He or she never denied that it happened, or that Stalin was responsible.