Iolo

Anyone of the right type can react to particular historical pressures, yes. You are trying to equate different times, and it won't work - it's like all these people who want to know if Alexander the Great would have defeated the Eighth Army and such - not a useful way to use your head, in my view.

Anna James

I'm not equating different times, I'm comparing psychological types and styles of leadership. Brejnev was the Soviet leader of my youth-late teens, and I read quite a bit about Khrushchev and Stalin. Khrushchev lost the internal battle with the others of the Politburo because he was humane, and when the others found him not aggressive enough, they accused him in having "dictator's style", so Khrushchev for the rest of his life murmured "Can you imagine if they accused Stalin in having dictator's style? Even a wet spot wouldn't be left from them if Stalin was alive" /I write from memory, I'm not 100% sure that the sentence had the same structure, but the meaning is the same/. My opinion on Brejnev is from my personal news-watching and his feud with Reagan - he was a cipher, and quite incompetent at the top of everything, and left the Soviet economy to break down with his hiding from the problems.
Not every professed communist would behave like Stalin, nor I see another from this type /I'm not sure what you mean when say "right type"/ being around in this time. My Stalinist grandfather was a military man, and even though he still /now he is 89/ insists that this was the right thing to do, I doubt very much he himself would be able to do it...you have to be able to dehumanize the humanity, and do whatever you do with no pleasure or passion, nor fear or doubt...and it's not a killer mentality, this is different. Lenin was able to to that, but not Trotski, IMHO, for example. I base my opinions on memoirs and books written by the people I'm talking about, and some of them I read in Russian, /much is lost in translation from the psychological profile of the person/, also I know many Russians, and many military men, I passed 3/4ths of my life around them...even my husband is a an ex-military /if there is such thing as a "military man", it's pretty much once one, all life one/.
Also, Iolo, Stalin did that he did to his own people first, the Ukraine was a Republic from the USSR, supposedly joined the Union voluntarily, a federative state in the USSR /later under the "spheres of influence" doctrine he spread his "influence" to the whole Eastern Europe, "influencing" others to do similar things to their own people/. We can try to stop someone who is trying to get in someone else's country, but what are to do when these "ism's" I mentioned first destroyed thousands, million lives in the countries they started, then they spread...if we intervene, we are the "aggressors", the entering ones, if we don't, we leave the people there to die...and here we touch very sensitive, perplexing and controversial points where history, politics and morality cross each other and cancel each other in many strange ways.

Anna James

On the Indian Famine, my opinion is that it was brought about by incompetence and neglect - the British government didn't restrict the export of rice from Bengal to suit the failure of crops in Bengal, and in the same time it didn't divert rice from Burma, who was having a rich year. The idea wasn't to harm the Indians, they didn't think about them - call it stupidity, lack of care, incompetence, all of them work. Time of war, everyone was thinking of Europe, the British were spread too thin...and India was out of sight. This doesn't make it right, but it wasn't criminal. I would say something like "manslaughter in a gigantic scale". For manslaughter one goes to jail...
The Potato Famine was caused by avarice and neglect, and it's more liable to a moral judgement in my book because it didn't happen in a time of war when everyone thinks only how to survive, but in the case English landowners war thinking only about their purses. A would call it "criminal neglect bringing manslaughter on a massive scale". One goes for manslaughter and criminal neglect to jail too...AFAIK in the US one could get 2 jail times one after another for the 2 points.
Of course I'm not saying 'Send someone to jail", just in those two cases I consider what happened due to the human fallacy, and human avarice. In none of these cases the population was forbidden to emigrate, and between 1.5 - 2 million Irish emigrated, while in USSR, Stalin with the Directive written on 01-23-1933 have forbidden the Ukrainians to leave the country, and all kinds of police were roaming around to catch whoever was trying to sneak out, no train passes were to be sold to Ukrainians, so they were stuck.
The Ukrainian Famine case is different than the other two, I place it in something like "crimes against the humanity, the humannes in the humanity, and utter disrespect for the human rights", this goes to all Totalitarian regimes, no matter the name -Fashism, Nazism, Stalinism, Maoism, KhmerRougeism and whatever else "ism" fits the description.
The opinion I express in my last paragraph is based on Hannah Arendt's "The Origins of the Totalitarianism", and I'm not looking for blame, but for lessons humanity should never forget, lest it happens again.

urtel

famine was here not in 34' ,harvest from 33' can be ussed only in last months of 33' and in 34' where famine is already ower...

all grain-producing areas in the Soviet Union, including Kazakhstan(estimate 200.000 death), the Volga, Don and Kuban regions was hit with famine but guess we call them colateral damage in Stalin mad qst to kill ONLY Ukraine Pesants ..

About directive (which original i can't find), Ukraine court who acsussed Russia as sucsessor of Soviet Union for genocide say:

Last part is Ukraine court explanation, but where i can read about those measures.
"On preventing mass exodus of starving peasants for food"

Why those measures can't be give them food, make them work in 3 shifts or what ever?
Or if border lock is one of measures how solider on border know who is peasant and who is citizen, how any country can realize border lock only to peasants?!?

Here is one guy who say for Great Indian Famine exactly what u say for Ukraine famine:

GEORGE BARNSBY [communist from GB died in 1944’]

In his book British Soldier in India, the Letters of Clive Branson

But his book is policed in 1944' and for that case he can be count as primal source not like those 60 years after evident. Not that i counts it as any source just shows u how u claims sound to me, same as his claims to u.

I think, in India or Ukraine or in any other place, there was not deliberate human make famine to kill own population – that mean reason of famine is to kill!
For me that is just imagination of people who never have any control over larger population even group of 10ppl not to talk about millions.
On other side i m sure many rulers and governments (and this have nothing to do with communism or any other system) was willing to RISK famine to accomplish some goal...

Anna James

I didn't say the the Indian Famine wasn't man-made, I said that the reason for making it wasn't political, like in Ukraine, but was by not taking the right measure of stopping the export from Bengal or redirecting rice from Burma, it was caused by incompetence, a fallacy. Your source is concurring with mine.
The fact that the Directives were written to stop the Ukrainians to leave Ukraine meant that they are stuck to stay there and die, it doesn't matter if it was for months or years, the result is the same.
Risk is risk, life is risky, life happens, this has nothing to do with the willingness of the leaders of the regimes I mentioned to play with the lives and fates of peoples, no matter the number of them. When you have a natural disaster, at least you have the right to try to move somewhere and save your family and yourself, and have the right to sell your production on a fair price, and if can't do this, then why are you living for at all, what's the purpose of life if you can't choose and least some things for yourself? I would prefer to be shot right away, than to be broken and for the rest of my life every little thing I do to be ordered to me in Directives of some kind. I can die only one time, the slavery of the totalitarian regimes caused a death in a living body, every hour of every day.
The Ukraine Famine was engineered to keep the freedom of choice down, and sure Stalin would know that the Ukrainian peasants will have no food, after he commended the food taken away, and had forbidden them to leave, that's why he ordered those on the first place, to starve their bodies and brake their spirit. Is I said, it's a very personal choice which values one will chose over others, and I'm looking into the reasons Stalin had to engineer the Ukrainian Famine, and this is what, for me, decides how I look on it. And I don't want to force this opinion on anyone, /freedom of thought, after all/,but I'm can't except whitewashing of the facts, and excusing the political/social/genetic engineering that any totalitarian regime forced upon people.
My information about the numbers I mention is from sources I included in the closed Miss Communist thread, I didn't imagine them up.

Edward

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/stalin.htm

Qte“ By 1921, the battles for free Ukraine ended with a Soviet victory while the western part of the Ukraine was divided-up among Poland, Romania, and Czechoslovakia. The Soviets immediately began shipping out huge amounts of grain to feed the hungry people of Moscow and other big Russian cities. Coincidentally, a drought occurred in the Ukraine, resulting in widespread starvation and a surge of popular resentment against Lenin and the Soviets.
To lessen the deepening resentment, Lenin relaxed his grip on the country, stopped taking out so much grain, and even encouraged a free-market exchange of goods. This breath of fresh air renewed the people's interest in independence and resulted in a national revival movement celebrating their unique folk customs, language, poetry, music, arts, and Ukrainian orthodox religion.
Lenin died in 1924, he was succeeded by Joseph Stalin, one of the most ruthless humans ever to hold power. To Stalin, the burgeoning national revival movement and continuing loss of Soviet influence in the Ukraine was completely unacceptable. To crush the people's free spirit, he began to employ the same methods he had successfully used within the Soviet Union. Thus, beginning in 1929, over 5,000 Ukrainian scholars, scientists, cultural and religious leaders were arrested after being falsely accused of plotting an armed revolt. Those arrested were either shot without a trial or deported to prison camps in remote areas of Russia.
Stalin also imposed the Soviet system of land management known as collectivization. This resulted in the seizure of all privately owned farmlands and livestock, in a country where 80 percent of the people were traditional village farmers. Among those farmers, were a class of people called Kulaks by the Communists. They were formerly wealthy farmers that had owned 24 or more acres, or had employed farm workers. Stalin believed any future insurrection would be led by the Kulaks, thus he proclaimed a policy aimed at "liquidating the Kulaks as a class."
Declared "enemies of the people," the Kulaks were left homeless and without a single possession as everything was taken from them, even their pots and pans. It was also forbidden by law for anyone to aid dispossessed Kulak families. Some researchers estimate that ten million persons were thrown out of their homes, put on railroad box cars and deported to "special settlements" in the wilderness of Siberia during this era, with up to a third of them perishing amid the frigid living conditions. Men and older boys, along with childless women and unmarried girls, also became slave-workers in Soviet-run mines and big industrial projects.
In the Ukraine, once-proud village farmers were by now reduced to the level of rural factory workers on large collective farms. Anyone refusing to participate in the compulsory collectivization system was simply denounced as a Kulak and deported.
A propaganda campaign was started utilizing eager young Communist activists who spread out among the country folk attempting to shore up the people's support for the Soviet regime. However, their attempts failed. Despite the propaganda, ongoing coercion and threats, the people continued to resist through acts of rebellion and outright sabotage. They burned their own homes rather than surrender them. They took back their property, tools and farm animals from the collectives, harassed and even assassinated local Soviet authorities. This ultimately put them in direct conflict with the power and authority of Joseph Stalin.
Soviet troops and secret police were rushed in to put down the rebellion. They confronted rowdy farmers by firing warning shots above their heads. In some cases, however, they fired directly at the people. Stalin's secret police (GPU, predecessor of the KGB) also went to work waging a campaign of terror designed to break the people's will. GPU squads systematically attacked and killed uncooperative farmers. But the resistance continued. The people simply refused to become cogs in the Soviet farm machine and remained stubbornly determined to return to their pre-Soviet farming lifestyle. Some refused to work at all, leaving the wheat and oats to rot in unharvested fields. Once again, they were placing themselves in conflict with Stalin.
In Moscow, Stalin responded to their unyielding defiance by dictating a policy that would deliberately cause mass starvation and result in the deaths of millions.
By mid 1932, nearly 75 percent of the farms in the Ukraine had been forcibly collectivized. On Stalin's orders, mandatory quotas of foodstuffs to be shipped out to the Soviet Union were drastically increased in August, October and again in January 1933, until there was simply no food remaining to feed the people of the Ukraine. “ end of qte

Edward

Stalin wife-Nadiezhda Alliiuyeva


Many historians link her suicidal death in1932 with mental depression caused by knowledge of Stalin crimes, including Ukrainian famine.
Allegedly, she committed suicide after learning full extends of Ukrainian famine and number of victims.

Anna James

Thank you, Edward, for the info! I didn't know that Lenin encouraged milder politics toward the Ukrainians. Is it why he is now accused by some Eastern Ukrainians in "forcing Ukrainization"/making the "Russian" population in the Ukraine to speak Ukrainian, so to destroy the Great-Russian spirit and split the population/, artificially creating a Ukrainian nation? If you think I'm off topic, you can send me info as a private message.

Anna James

sturm posted in the Miss Communism link a translation of the Directive. Here is the original of the Memorandum of the grain produce, which states that all the available goods from the store if to be taken all all the trade is forbidden.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/k3grain.gif
This link is between those I sent you on the Miss Communism link, I don't have to search for them again.
About the Indian Famine, I don't know who suppressed whose book, I found my info on the net. It doesn't seem to me that anyone is denying what happened, actually the British lose India after it, since the Famine triggered the independence Movement in India. Again, the coast of Bengal was hit by a cyclon, a huge area up to 40 miles inland was flooded and the production of rice failed, the British government didn't stop or reduce the rice import for the Allied armies, nor did it shift rice from Burma, who was having a bumper crop/Burma fell to the Japanese early in 1942/. I can't compare this with the facts about the Ukrainian Famine, besides there is no a Bengaly Famine 1943 Denial, but there is a Ukrainian Famine 1933 Denial,
http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/famineden.htm
why? Who is covering for whom?
Here some links on the Bengali Famine.
http://www.winstonchurchill.org/lear...bengali-famine
http://www.banglapedia.org/httpdocs/HT/F_0016.HTM

Edward

No, Ukrainian nation was not created artificially. This is a rill nation with history ruching far into 7- 8 century.
Russians claim that Ukrainians, Belarusians and Russians are the same people are driven by nationalistic and imperial sentiment of some Russians dreaming about Great Russia. They will put gladly all Slavic people under one “Russian super nation” of “pan-Slavic” ideology.
The claim about Russian-Ukrainians_ Byelorussians as one nation is ridicules in the same way that say, Western Slavs (Poles, Czech, Slovakian Sorbs and now extinct tribes from today eastern Germany) are also one nation.