irlandahomme

Hi,

New to the forums here. I know of a supporter of Joseph Stalin who condemns anyone for saying that Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions of people and slaughtered Jews.

He claims that there was no accounts or figures or any form of backed up statistical proof for such claims and doesn't appreciate the figures that Stalin was responsible for at least 10 million deaths through his policies.

He also claims that all the statistics are taken mostly from Robert Conquests books, which he claims to be unsupported. He claims the US statistics are biased and don't reflect any truth.

I'm not a historian. I'd like to ask people here is he absolutely wrong, or is he certainly right? If he's wrong, can you provide unbiased links to proof that Stalin was indeed responsible for over 10 million (some claim upto 90 million) deaths. I believe that Stalin was responsible, but as a non-historian, I have no unbiased back up.

Thanks.

avon

There are numerous documents in the archives in Moscow that are essentially arrest-lists and execution lists. Each one was authorised by a high ranking member of the Soviet elite. Stalin's signature is on many (though not the most). Similarly, Stalin's distinctive red pencil can be found on numerous documents asking for 'Another 6000 here', or 'More needed'.

There can be no doubt that Stalin knew of the numbers of executions or, indeed, that he was the active driver of the purges. The only contentions that receive reasonable discussion amongst historians concern the question of 'to what extent' and motive. (It is plausible to ask whether or not Stalin was almost forced into the purges by the bolshevik system of government ... ).

bakjewel

Most of Robert Conquest books were written before the disintegration of the soviet union, but now we have the archives of soviet records which were hidden before, which i believe should carry the correct numbers

Pfaxt3ld

90 million people is an extreme exageration and it's also 20 million people more than the high estimate of WWII deaths. Anyway, Stalin had millions of people killed through many ways: execution, the gulags, famines ect. If you want proof of Stalin's attrocities then take your friend on a trip to Ukraine where 5 million people starved to death under Stalin's man made famines, the people of Ukraine even welcomed Hitler's troops because they thought that they were there to liberate them. (they were wrong of course) Also Russia is so big that you could be killed, have your body dumped somewhere, and never be found again. Have your friend visit Siberia sometime and see if he could survive in those conditions the way that thousands of others didn't.

VM1138

This is one of those situations where the stats can be manipulated. A lot of people like to throw in things like famine, prison deaths, executions, etc. and say they were all directed by a single person which isn't always the case.

Whenever we talk about deaths or who is responsible for what, it always gets murky as to what numbers are used and why.

But Stalin was a bad, bad man and it's pretty much a consensus that he did have a role in massive executions.

ruskow98

I think in Stalin's case alot of those things actually were directed by a single person. Things like prison deaths and executions aren't natural deaths and only occured due to Stalin's mistrust of those around them. In the Russian Government most major orders were given out directly from Stalin and while some other officials such as Beria and Malenkov had some autonomy they essentially operated under Stalin's directives. They alos had quotas to fill for executions and imprisonment which Stalin set.

Either way like you said he was still a bad, bad man.

Challenger117

Given the bits of Isaac Deutscher I have read, and that he is sympathetic to the socialist movement as a whole, the system seems to have been manipulated by those at the top and in particular. Given stalin's record, (ousting Trostky, etc), I doubt that the system is heavily responsible.

It may have enabled it, but the person initiating it was stalin.

Edgewaters

The situation was Bolshevik policy and had been since their coup. Tambov rebellion, Kronstadt uprising etc. Stalin merely inheirited an expanding apparatus of repression, and continued to nurture its growth.

The figures such as 90 million etc are vastly exaggerated; basically every person who died during that period is added in to make the numbers sound good. In reality, they are much lower - but still on the order of a few million.

Challenger117

Ah, I see, Bolshevik policy should not be confused with Communist Policy. as we are dealing with a time when the two are still distinct, other wise the opposition from the Left SRs would not have happened.

Trizzo

Took a murderous maniac to stop Hitler, so good job on that one Stalin.

Russia 1-0 Germany.