Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > European History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

European History European History Forum - Western and Eastern Europe including the British Isles, Scandinavia, Russia


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old February 26th, 2013, 10:17 AM   #1

Underlankers's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,138
The Battle of Tannenberg, 1410:


In this battle, perhaps the largest one of medieval times, the forces of the Kingdoms of Poland and Lithuania decisively crushed the state of the Order of the Teutonic Knights, ending for centuries the drive of Germanophones intent on establishing colonies at the expense of the Slavs.

Teutonic Battle of Grunwald - July 15th - 1410

In this victory, too, the rise of what became the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was sealed, though the full process would occur only after the Livonian War when Ivan the Terrible briefly wrecked Russia. This battle is also the one most famous chiefly because of the 1914 engagement fought at Frogenau that was renamed after this battle for pure propaganda reasons. Of the two, the 1410 battle is much more clearly a victory because of the victors than the 1914 battle was.

If any battle can be said to launch the glory days of Poland, IMHO, this would be the one.
Underlankers is offline  
Remove Ads
Old February 26th, 2013, 05:10 PM   #2
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2013
From: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 3,795

Quote:
ending for centuries the drive of Germanophones intent on establishing colonies at the expense of the Slavs.
Utter nonsense.

The conflict was between rival ruling classes for control over the wealthy trading cities such as Danzig, Elbing and Thorn, which controlled the Vistula-Baltic trade.

Those cities were under the rule of the Monastic State of the Teutonic order, which had grown immensely wealthy thereby. In fact, the Monastic State of the Teutonic Order was vastly more wealthy than the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand-Duchy of Lithuania put together, which is the reason why Jogaila, the Lithuanian King of Poland, wanted to conquer it.

The Battle of Grunwald was the result of an invasion of the territory of the Monsastic State of the Teutonic Order by the Polish and Lithuanian forces of Jogaila, for the purposes of grabbing the wealth controlled by the Order. The Knights of the Teutonic Order were simply defending their territory against invasion; the battle took place on their territory, not on Polish or Lithuanian territory.

As stated, the battle was the result of a conflict for power between two rival medieval ruling classes. It was only in the 19th Century that both German and Polish hypernationalists re-interpreted it as a racial struggle between the German and Slavic peoples.

As it happened, the Battle of Grunwald did nothing whatever to change the mainly ethnic German nature of the population of the Monastic State of the Teutonic Order or of the cities of Danzig, Elbing and Thorn, which continued until the 20th Century.
michael mills is offline  
Old February 27th, 2013, 06:21 AM   #3

johnincornwall's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2010
From: Cornwall
Posts: 1,146

Quote:
Originally Posted by Underlankers View Post
In this battle, perhaps the largest one of medieval times, the forces of the Kingdoms of Poland and Lithuania decisively crushed the state of the Order of the Teutonic Knights, ending for centuries the drive of Germanophones intent on establishing colonies at the expense of the Slavs.

Teutonic Battle of Grunwald - July 15th - 1410

In this victory, too, the rise of what became the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was sealed, though the full process would occur only after the Livonian War when Ivan the Terrible briefly wrecked Russia. This battle is also the one most famous chiefly because of the 1914 engagement fought at Frogenau that was renamed after this battle for pure propaganda reasons. Of the two, the 1410 battle is much more clearly a victory because of the victors than the 1914 battle was.

If any battle can be said to launch the glory days of Poland, IMHO, this would be the one.
Surely it was originally a crusading purpose? Against the Eastern pagans. By Tannenberg hadn't everybody round about become christian anyway, so the reason for being had ceased to exist (except land wars)? Not good for recruitment.
johnincornwall is offline  
Old March 18th, 2013, 07:27 PM   #4
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Nov 2009
From: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 3,760

Quote:
Originally Posted by Underlankers View Post
In this battle, perhaps the largest one of medieval times, the forces of the Kingdoms of Poland and Lithuania decisively crushed the state of the Order of the Teutonic Knights, ending for centuries the drive of Germanophones intent on establishing colonies at the expense of the Slavs.

Teutonic Battle of Grunwald - July 15th - 1410

In this victory, too, the rise of what became the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was sealed, though the full process would occur only after the Livonian War when Ivan the Terrible briefly wrecked Russia. This battle is also the one most famous chiefly because of the 1914 engagement fought at Frogenau that was renamed after this battle for pure propaganda reasons. Of the two, the 1410 battle is much more clearly a victory because of the victors than the 1914 battle was.

If any battle can be said to launch the glory days of Poland, IMHO, this would be the one.
There were many reasons for stopping Germanic expansion east for couple of hundred years. Probably the most important was the Battle of Grunwald (Tannenberg) in 1410.
Edward is offline  
Old March 18th, 2013, 07:29 PM   #5
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Nov 2009
From: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 3,760

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael mills View Post
Utter nonsense.

The conflict was between rival ruling classes for control over the wealthy trading cities such as Danzig, Elbing and Thorn, which controlled the Vistula-Baltic trade.

Those cities were under the rule of the Monastic State of the Teutonic order, which had grown immensely wealthy thereby. In fact, the Monastic State of the Teutonic Order was vastly more wealthy than the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand-Duchy of Lithuania put together, which is the reason why Jogaila, the Lithuanian King of Poland, wanted to conquer it.

The Battle of Grunwald was the result of an invasion of the territory of the Monsastic State of the Teutonic Order by the Polish and Lithuanian forces of Jogaila, for the purposes of grabbing the wealth controlled by the Order. The Knights of the Teutonic Order were simply defending their territory against invasion; the battle took place on their territory, not on Polish or Lithuanian territory.

As stated, the battle was the result of a conflict for power between two rival medieval ruling classes. It was only in the 19th Century that both German and Polish hypernationalists re-interpreted it as a racial struggle between the German and Slavic peoples.

As it happened, the Battle of Grunwald did nothing whatever to change the mainly ethnic German nature of the population of the Monastic State of the Teutonic Order or of the cities of Danzig, Elbing and Thorn, which continued until the 20th Century.
I will repead your openinsentence; Utter nonsense
Edward is offline  
Old March 19th, 2013, 12:25 AM   #6

beorna's Avatar
αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
 
Joined: Jan 2010
From: Lower Saxony
Posts: 13,227

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
There were many reasons for stopping Germanic expansion east for couple of hundred years. Probably the most important was the Battle of Grunwald (Tannenberg) in 1410.
Germanic expansion? You mean german? You mean that Conrad of Kujawia called for help? You mean that the Piast duces of Silesia voluntarily became subjects of the king of Bohemia, which you love to call Czech kings? or do you mean the competitive race between the dukes and kings of Poland and german nobles for the land between Elbe and oder river? Or perhaps you mean the German settlements? Well these so calle colonisation declined already since the beginning of the 14th century and ended finally with the plague in 1340/50th. So how could these battle be the most important point here. The order was at 1410 already an anachronism.
beorna is online now  
Old March 19th, 2013, 12:32 AM   #7

bodhi's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Jan 2013
From: Berlin
Posts: 719

I think most people think to modernist. These wars were not between peoples like French, German, Slavs and so on but between dynasties, ruling classes. They didn't care over which people they ruled.

This was not a battle to stop "German settlement in Slavic territories" it was a battle between two/three dynasties over the control of a wealthy area.
bodhi is offline  
Old March 19th, 2013, 01:05 AM   #8
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Nov 2009
From: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 3,760

Quote:
Originally Posted by beorna View Post
Germanic expansion? You mean german? You mean that Conrad of Kujawia called for help? You mean that the Piast duces of Silesia voluntarily became subjects of the king of Bohemia, which you love to call Czech kings? or do you mean the competitive race between the dukes and kings of Poland and german nobles for the land between Elbe and oder river? Or perhaps you mean the German settlements? Well these so calle colonisation declined already since the beginning of the 14th century and ended finally with the plague in 1340/50th. So how could these battle be the most important point here. The order was at 1410 already an anachronism.
Ah, you ar again.
The Czech kingdom, to be more precise, was not a Germany. Anyway, this expansion, whatever it was, was stopped or perhaps slowed after Battle of Grunwald. It stopped Teutonic expansion for sure. Teutonic Knights were Germans, if you do not know that.

Last edited by Edward; March 19th, 2013 at 01:11 AM.
Edward is offline  
Old March 19th, 2013, 02:08 AM   #9

beorna's Avatar
αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
 
Joined: Jan 2010
From: Lower Saxony
Posts: 13,227

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
Ah, you ar again.
The Czech kingdom, to be more precise, was not a Germany. Anyway, this expansion, whatever it was, was stopped or perhaps slowed after Battle of Grunwald. It stopped Teutonic expansion for sure. Teutonic Knights were Germans, if you do not know that.
So why don't you speak about a Czech expansion? Why do you never use the term "Polish expansion" or Polish Drang nach Westen/Osten"? There was no Germany which had a concept of eastern expansion. Slavic territories in the east were conquered by nobles, pacified, cos there were slavic raids, subjected and integrated into the feud system. German nobles were here in a competition with Bohemian dukes/kings and Polish dukes/kings. You havn't explained us till now, why only the german expansion was evil.

Teutonic knights were indeed in majority ethnic Germans, but as well from other ethnics of the HRE and a great number of their knights were guests from abroad, e.g. Andreas of Hungary.

The Order was already in decline, by several reasons. The battle of Tannenberg was as well not the end of the order and it had as well less to do with the end of your so-called german expansion. As I wrote a lot of times, these so-called expansion was mainly finished already 50 years before tannenberg.
beorna is online now  
Old March 19th, 2013, 02:48 AM   #10
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Nov 2009
From: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 3,760

Quote:
Originally Posted by beorna View Post
So why don't you speak about a Czech expansion? Why do you never use the term "Polish expansion" or Polish Drang nach Westen/Osten"? There was no Germany which had a concept of eastern expansion. Slavic territories in the east were conquered by nobles, pacified, cos there were slavic raids, subjected and integrated into the feud system. German nobles were here in a competition with Bohemian dukes/kings and Polish dukes/kings. You havn't explained us till now, why only the german expansion was evil.

Teutonic knights were indeed in majority ethnic Germans, but as well from other ethnics of the HRE and a great number of their knights were guests from abroad, e.g. Andreas of Hungary.

The Order was already in decline, by several reasons. The battle of Tannenberg was as well not the end of the order and it had as well less to do with the end of your so-called german expansion. As I wrote a lot of times, these so-called expansion was mainly finished already 50 years before tannenberg.
For one reason only. Polish western expansion during forming of Polish state in 9-10-11 century was directed towards Lechite (ancient polish speaking Tribes) not towards Germanic tribes. German expansion was towards Slavic land. That is a major difference which you do not understand (I think that you do not want to understand). Czech Kingdom was predominantly inhabited by Czech Nations and formed by Czech dynasty of Premislids. There was no Bohemian Nation as such. There were Czech peoples with influx of German migrants which has been welcomed by local population. All aristocracy and nobleman were Czechs. Germans were a trade people, sometime very skilled, sometimes just cheap laborers. The Bohemia was a geographical entity, not a nation state.
But I do not care anymore. You can call Swedish Kingdom Scandinavian Kingdom and Spanish Kingdom Iberian Kingdom if you wish.
But you continue to deny Czech people their achievements and their influence in forming the shape of Central Europe.
By the way, the rules of Teutonic Order allowed only “German Speaking” candidates to enter this order.
Edward is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > European History

Tags
1410, battle, tannenberg


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What happened at Tannenberg? Gnaeus War and Military History 30 July 6th, 2013 11:30 AM
WW100 Battle of Tannenberg Baltis War and Military History 12 March 1st, 2013 07:30 AM
The Battle of Tannenberg Salah War and Military History 172 October 3rd, 2012 03:08 AM
Landsknechts at Tannenberg? HeirofAlexander Medieval and Byzantine History 16 August 21st, 2011 02:32 PM
Battle of Grunwald 1410 Edward War and Military History 2 November 17th, 2010 07:53 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.