Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > European History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

European History European History Forum - Western and Eastern Europe including the British Isles, Scandinavia, Russia


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old April 9th, 2013, 12:47 PM   #11
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2013
From: Brigadoon
Posts: 4,569

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scientist View Post
Thank you for explanation. Religious wars were a real disaster for European history.
True. Im as much a defender of the Protestant Reformation as you can get. However, it's unfortunate that by the 1780's the feelings were still as strong on the matter(on mainland Britain I mean, Ireland is another kettle of fish). 18th century anti-Catholicism is a period I know less about. I assume British anti-Catholicism to some extent re-emerged again after the Bonnie Prince Charlie uprising of 1745. If anyone has any other knowledge on this matter I would appreciate hearing it.
jackydee is offline  
Remove Ads
Old April 9th, 2013, 01:23 PM   #12

OccamsRazor's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2012
From: London, centre of my world
Posts: 1,541

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackydee View Post
True. Im as much a defender of the Protestant Reformation as you can get. However, it's unfortunate that by the 1780's the feelings were still as strong on the matter(on mainland Britain I mean, Ireland is another kettle of fish). 18th century anti-Catholicism is a period I know less about. I assume British anti-Catholicism to some extent re-emerged again after the Bonnie Prince Charlie uprising of 1745. If anyone has any other knowledge on this matter I would appreciate hearing it.
Anti-Catholic feeling remained strong into Victorian times; in fact it remained in the establishment well into the 20th century - Princess Marie Astrid of Luxembourg was not considered 'suitable' as a future wife to Prince Charles due to her religious belief. (To allow a Catholic on the throne of Great Britain means repealing the Act of Settlement of 1701).

I think it boils down to this - Protestantism equals patriotic Britons, Catholicism equals Europeans enslaved by Rome. After all, who has heard the phrase 'Catholic work-ethic'? It was this attitude that fed anti-Catholicism, as well as the events in the history of England between Henry VIII's break with Rome and the coronation of William and Mary.
OccamsRazor is online now  
Old April 9th, 2013, 01:35 PM   #13

OccamsRazor's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2012
From: London, centre of my world
Posts: 1,541

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccamsRazor View Post

TJAdams, I should have explained that I had to go in for my tea before I could put a proper answer together.
Now I've been allowed out to play again, it looks like others have answered your queries.

It was possibly the worst episode of civil disorder in London's past, yet ask any Londoner about it, they won't have a clue what you're talking about.
Mention 'riot' and they'll tell you about the ones in 2011.
OccamsRazor is online now  
Old April 9th, 2013, 01:52 PM   #14
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2013
From: Brigadoon
Posts: 4,569

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjadams View Post
Tea? LOL. You Brits and your tea. Its all good, I understand.
I am looking for a more human response than the mere look it up
cut and paste answer. The size of the riot's numbers really made me
sit up and thought it would be more on the mind, and in books, than
just passing.
Some interesting details including first hand accounts:

The Gordon Riots

This is probably the most famous image of the riots. At least its one ive seen a few times.

Click the image to open in full size.


I think in this case you are misunderstanding the word "tea". Tea is in fact this case a meal(I think). America and Britain, divided by a common language.
jackydee is offline  
Old April 10th, 2013, 03:05 AM   #15

Scientist's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Mar 2013
From: Moscow
Posts: 485

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccamsRazor View Post
Anti-Catholic feeling remained strong into Victorian times; in fact it remained in the establishment well into the 20th century - Princess Marie Astrid of Luxembourg was not considered 'suitable' as a future wife to Prince Charles due to her religious belief. (To allow a Catholic on the throne of Great Britain means repealing the Act of Settlement of 1701).

I think it boils down to this - Protestantism equals patriotic Britons, Catholicism equals Europeans enslaved by Rome. After all, who has heard the phrase 'Catholic work-ethic'? It was this attitude that fed anti-Catholicism, as well as the events in the history of England between Henry VIII's break with Rome and the coronation of William and Mary.
We can see anti-Catholic attacks in USA in middle of 19 century. They were accused of being servants of Pope. I.e. Catholics were suspected as bad patriots too.
Scientist is offline  
Old April 10th, 2013, 05:10 AM   #16
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2011
From: Suffolk
Posts: 372

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjadams View Post
Indeed.
Pounds equal weight in the US, money in the UK.
Tim's River doesn't mean Thames River.
Lew is a man's name, not the bathroom.


Thanks for your link as well.
We use pound and stone for weight as well. We use a mix of imperial and metric for most things.
RewardMe is offline  
Old April 10th, 2013, 05:45 AM   #17

Garry_Owen's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Jan 2012
From: Thomond, Ireland.
Posts: 674

There is no connection between Bloody Mary and the Gordon Riots, except in the minds of sectarian agitators like Gordon. Mary's campaign against Protestants is separated from the Gordon Riots by nearly two and a half centuries!

In the late Georgian period the tension between the threat posed by Romanticism and the familiar order of Classicism were acute and gave rise to great literature and populist froth. Scurrilous anti-Catholicism was rife in eighteenth century England and pervaded all cultural and literary genres. It was also fed by Protestant establishment fears of the republicanism that emerged on the Continent and came to fruition in America a few years earlier. The Gordon Riots were born out of this tension and fear, harnessing popular discontent and giving it political direction. At the time, both overt and latent anti-Catholicism manifested itself among the better educated and upper levels of society whereas it was encouraged and developed into naked sectarianism among the rampaging London mob of 1780.

It was easy for Gordon to manipulate the ignorant masses (the same is done today!). The occasion for the riots was the repeal of anti-Catholic legislation. Not surprisingly, he had already found his most ardent sectarian support north of the border in Scotland where his campaign against the toleration of Catholics had been successful. In London he failed but not before the mob had vented itself on the city’s Catholic population.

The mob, the mobile vulgus, who threatened London society that week were motivated by two factors. The one was their obvious anti-Catholic (and anti-Irish) prejudice, fostered by populist literature and ignorance, the other was their social discontent with their lot. Those better sorts, the lords and bishops, who were on the receiving end of the mobs displeasure were certainly discomfited, but on the Sunday in the Catholic Moorefield area of London it was decidedly vicious and indiscriminate, and fueled by drink. Edmund Burke’s house was attacked but saved in the end by troops. The authorities were slow to act and often the troops showed empathy with the rioters. Over 100 Catholic homes and businesses were destroyed along with many chapels, a school and hundreds were injured and homeless, and as many killed.

Of course, the mob were acting ‘democratically’ and with the blessing of their betters but as one eye-witness put it they merely demonstrated the ‘negro barbarity of the populace’. And he went on to scoff: ‘This is liberty. Genuine British liberty!’ See this link where much of this is in evidence:

http://www.brycchancarey.com/sancho/letter2.htm

Last edited by Garry_Owen; April 10th, 2013 at 06:00 AM.
Garry_Owen is offline  
Old April 10th, 2013, 05:54 AM   #18

Earl_of_Rochester's Avatar
Scoundrel
¤ Member of the Year ¤
 
Joined: Feb 2011
From: Perambulating in St James' Park
Posts: 13,376

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackydee View Post
Some interesting details including first hand accounts:

The Gordon Riots

This is probably the most famous image of the riots. At least its one ive seen a few times.

Click the image to open in full size.


I think in this case you are misunderstanding the word "tea". Tea is in fact this case a meal(I think). America and Britain, divided by a common language.

Interesting thread, is that the notorious Newgate Prison in the background?
Earl_of_Rochester is offline  
Old April 10th, 2013, 06:06 AM   #19
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2013
From: Brigadoon
Posts: 4,569

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry_Owen View Post
There is no connection between Bloody Mary and the Gordon Riots, except in the minds of sectarian agitators like Gordon. Mary's campaign against Protestants is separated from the Gordon Riots by nearly two and a half centuries!

In the late Georgian period the tension between the threat posed by Romanticism and the familiar order of Classicism were acute and gave rise to great literature and populist froth. Scurrilous anti-Catholicism was rife in eighteenth century England and pervaded all cultural and literary genres. It was also fed by Protestant establishment fears of the republicanism that emerged on the Continent and came to fruition in America a few years earlier. The Gordon Riots were born out of this tension and fear, harnessing popular discontent and giving it political direction. At the time, both overt and latent anti-Catholicism manifested itself among the better educated and upper levels of society whereas it was encouraged and developed into naked sectarianism among the rampaging London mob of 1780.

It was easy for Gordon to manipulate the ignorant masses (the same is done today!). The occasion for the riots was the repeal of anti-Catholic legislation. Not surprisingly, he had already found his most ardent sectarian support north of the border in Scotland where his campaign against the toleration of Catholics was successful. In London he failed but not before the mob had vented itself on the city’s Catholic population.

The mob, the mobile vulgus, who threatened London society that week were motivated by two factors. The one was their obvious anti-Catholic (and anti-Irish) prejudice, fostered by populist literature and ignorance, the other was their social discontent with their lot. Those better sorts, the lords and bishops, who were on the receiving end of the mobs displeasure were certainly discomfited, but on the Sunday in the Catholic Moorefield area of London it was decidedly vicious and indiscriminate, and fueled by drink. Edmund Burke’s house was attacked but saved in the end by troops. The authorities were slow to act and often the troops showed empathy with the rioters. Over 100 Catholic homes and businesses were destroyed along with many chapels, a school and hundreds were injured and homeless.

Of course, the mob were acting ‘democratically’ and with the blessing of their betters but as one eye-witness put it they merely demonstrated the ‘negro barbarity of the populace’. And he went on to scoff: ‘This is liberty. Genuine British liberty!’ See this link where much of this is in evidence:

http://www.brycchancarey.com/sancho/letter2.htm
I agree with some of this. However, to suggest that the policies of bloody Mary had no long term affects on British anti-Catholicism would be wrong. Bloody Mary of course being just one of many anti Catholic propaganda opportunities British Protestants could call upon.

It's also worth noting that riots against Catholic Emancipation means there was an almost as equally strong feeling in favour of Catholic emancipation within the political establishment. The calls for emancipation had to come from somewhere.

Reading up on the subject now I notice that Catholics to be "emancipated" were also subject to renouncing Stuart claims to the throne. This suggests feelings of 1745 were still strong.
jackydee is offline  
Old April 10th, 2013, 06:10 AM   #20
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2013
From: Brigadoon
Posts: 4,569

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester View Post
Interesting thread, is that the notorious Newgate Prison in the background?
I think it is, yes. The details of the drawing I am unsure of. I simply know ive seen it a few times. I think the man standing aloft in the centre is supposed to be Lord George Gordon himself(don't quote me on this however)

Here's Gordon after having converted to Judaism:

Click the image to open in full size.
jackydee is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > European History

Tags
george, gordon, gordon riots, lord



Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Did George Washington really add "so help me God" to his oath of office? Mick Jagger American History 12 June 3rd, 2016 09:51 PM
George G. Meade, "The Old Snapping Turtle" Viperlord American History 59 April 6th, 2013 07:53 AM
Gordon Rhea Salah History Book Reviews 1 August 18th, 2012 05:16 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.