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Old May 4th, 2013, 08:04 AM   #181
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Uh, having taken a Holocaust class there was quite a bit of discussion about how the history of the Holocaust has evolve d and changed over the years. I mean the discovery of just what kind of dirty deeds the Wehrmacht and SS were up to east of the Elbe has led to a dramatic altering of the view of the role of the camps, as millions of people were killed not in the gas chambers but in mass shootings.

Calling laws against Holocaust denial Orwellian thoughtcrime, however, seems to be rather pushing it.



Humbug. The Nazis didn't care one bit about leaving Jewish or other inmates alive at that point. If they were enslaved it was purely to extract labor from people condemned to die a slow and lingering death.
Case in point. Here we have someone who's been fed the official, etched-in-granite version of events and, apparently letting it rest at that, getting one side of the story only, makes "his" decision that virtually all is true; the exterminationist perpetuators of the story would never... lie, would they? I mean, they couln't possibly have ulterior motives for doing so... could they? (I'd be more than happy to two very obvious sneaky little motives for doing just that, if you'd like.)

Whether or not the SS didn't care one bit about leaving Jewish inmates alive toward the closing stages of the war isn't the point. What is, is that it's documented fact that US Army Air Corp. and RAF fighters and bombers indiscriminately strafed and bombed any and all German transport trains heading to the camps; those very same trains that were carrying life-sustaining food and medical supplies. Do your homework first; post later.



p.s. enough of this for today; I'm going to go play in the Lounge. Weeee!

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Old May 4th, 2013, 10:57 AM   #182

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Case in point. Here we have someone who's been fed the official, etched-in-granite version of events and, apparently letting it rest at that, getting one side of the story only, makes "his" decision that virtually all is true; the exterminationist perpetuators of the story would never... lie, would they?
And here we have a historical negationist who presumes to know about the motivations of someone else based purely on text on the Internet, relying on Argumentum ad Hominem as his strongest argument because put to evidence or any familiarity with the event his sophistry would vanish like snow before the Summer Sun. Here, too, we have the usual Negationist rhetoric that indicates no familiarity with the mainstream histories of these events, such as the blunt reality that most of the Jews killed in the Holocaust were killed in 1942-3 and that the slowdown in mass murder had to do with there being far fewer people to murder and with the other factors like the military collapse of the Nazi regime. Far be it from the convinced disciple of the Fomenko Approach to notice such minor issues as context, basic familiarity with the events and people in question, or things like that. Where the argument is wanting in the simple details of an event, one can safely dismiss the rest of the empty air expended on false statements.

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I mean, they couln't possibly have ulterior motives for doing so... could they? (I'd be more than happy to two very obvious sneaky little motives for doing just that, if you'd like.)
I'm not interested in what you think the SS did because simply put I have no interest in humoring the falsehoods propagated by Holocaust deniers. I have enough problems with these people in Civil War threads to juggle only those balls in the air, adding in European negationists is a bit much.

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Whether or not the SS didn't care one bit about leaving Jewish inmates alive toward the closing stages of the war isn't the point. What is, is that it's documented fact that US Army Air Corp. and RAF fighters and bombers indiscriminately strafed and bombed any and all German transport trains heading to the camps; those very same trains that were carrying life-sustaining food and medical supplies. Do your homework first; post later.
Documented by whom? Alex Jones and David Duke?
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Old May 4th, 2013, 11:05 AM   #183

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And the pretext/motivation behind these thought crime laws? Simply this: those who merely question the Holocaust story as perpetuated by the powers that be are "desecrating the memory" of the Jews who died the the various camps throughout Poland and Germany; hence, it is a crime, punishable by a nice long stretch in prison, to publicly dispute the official version of the history.
Daniel Goldhagen, Gotz Aly, and others who question the official version of that history might have a bone to pick with that assertion. Do you have any familiarity with what scholars in the field actually write? Have you ever by any chance read works like those of Martin Gilbert or Leni Yahil? The popular memory of the Holocaust and what academic scholars talk about, as usual, are East and West and ne'er the twain shall meet.

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In no other instance in the "free West" is this means of Big Brother thought control mandated by law. I myself cannot recall this ever happening in all the history of Europe, and I've read a lot of European history, believe me.
Then you haven't been looking hard enough. That you seriously make these statements in the context of a history that included an Eastern Bloc that was a thing and the mass murders and gunfire unleashed on those who questioned the official statements of this with laws against Holocaust denial, again is rather a shock.

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But it doesn't end here. In Germany, Belgium, Switzerland, France and Austria, among other European "democracies", Holocaust denial and trivialization laws are in effect and being enforced eagerly and promptly. However, though an Austrian or Belgian cannot claim that the Holocaust story is completely accurate, or that six million Jews did not die at the hands of the Germans during WWII, he can say that none of his very own countrymen were killed in that very same conflict. To put it in other words: a Frenchman cannot publicly state that Jewish citizens of another nation, hundreds of miles away and in another country, weren't killed by the Germans; but he can state that the Germans did not kill any of his very own people, within his very own borders. Now is that mindblowing, or what?

As far as "conspiracy theories being just that", yes, I agree. But keep in mind that it can work either way; conspirators can be operating on both sides of the fence, not just the one.
So? I mean your whole 'question' was nonsense. In 1944-5 the Allies made no efforts to bomb the camps because they were a little busy fighting and winning WWII, because most of the death camps had already been shut down and subjected to cover-ups during the war, and because the people 'liberating' most of those camps were fighting for the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Do you really see Comrade Stalin caring very much about a bunch of Jews killed in murder factories?

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p.s. One last thing... No one has yet to answer my question as to why the vast majority of people of this forum, some of whom are citizens of the very nations whose own lawmakers have placed Holocaust denial and trivialization statutes on the books, are completely unaware of the existence of these draconian, orwellian methods of mind control. In the "freedom-loving", good ol' US of A, the nation that attempts to shove democracy down the throats of every nation on the planet whether they like it or not, you will never, ever hear of the existence of these laws via mass media communications. Again, why is this?
You again haven't been looking hard enough or in the right corners of the Internet. Unfortunately a full answer of this would get into contemporary politics and is outside of the approved rules of the forum.
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Old May 4th, 2013, 02:31 PM   #184
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Moreover, in contrast to WWI, Germany did not suffer from a major shortage of food until the very end of the war.
/
Logistics for camps like Dachau and Buchenwald were also unproblematic, they were not located in the middle of nowhere, but adjacent to the thriving small towns of Dachau and Weimar, and furthermore surrounded by agricultural land.
Being near agricultural lands in itself is no guarantee that adequate food supplies are obtainable, as illustrated during America's revolution by the Continental Army's experiences at Morristown and Valley Forge.

'Germany did not suffer from a major shortage of food until the very end of the war.' varies somewhat with this:
Food supplies in Germany had already begun to break down in the fall of 1944, as the armed forces lost control over Eastern Europe with the westward advance of the Red Army, and road and rail communications within Germany were being severely disrupted by Allied bombing. The Nazi regime cut domestic bread rations from 12,450 grams in May 1944 to 9,700 in August, 8,900 in December, and 3,600 in April 1945. The meat ration was reduced from 1,900 grams to 550 over the same period. Nobody could live on what they were officially allowed to buy; a huge black market, run by escaped foreign workers, emerged, with gangs engaged in regular shootouts with the Gestapo. The incidence of diseases like tuberculosis, boosted by malnutrition and debilitation, rose sharply in 1944. And indeed, Collingham concedes that there were “worsening food shortages in Germany’s cities until, in the last months before the Allied victory, the supply system broke down.”
So far as possible, the 1944 harvest would have been monitored and allocated by German authorities who had to weigh the needs of their hard-pressed military forces, masses of factory workers, urban populations, refugees, losses from air strikes, spoilage, major uncertainties about what future harvests would be, losses to corruption and the black market... Food stock allocations for camp inmates would likely have been a relatively low priority in late 1944, and lower still during the winter as huge enemy armies closed in. Those gripping pictures of dead and near-dead Dachau inmates were taken in April, 1945, before the growing season had begun, about six months after 1944's had ended.

Point being a program of intentionally starving the inmates of camps like Dachau and Buchenwald is not a given.
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Old May 4th, 2013, 03:47 PM   #185
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In 1944-5 the Allies made no efforts to bomb the camps because they were a little busy fighting and winning WWII,
And yet, strangely enough, they had time to run numerous reconnaissance missions over Auschwitz.

And time to bomb a synthetic rubber plant 4 miles from Auschwitz.

And the resources to mount 1000 Bomber raids as early as May,1942.

And lots of P-51s for escort duty by late 1943.


Incidentally, your reason as to why those camps weren't bombed would be helpful to staff at the Jewish Virtual Library. They chalk it up to inertia and indifference.
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Old May 4th, 2013, 07:05 PM   #186

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And yet, strangely enough, they had time to run numerous reconnaissance missions over Auschwitz.

And time to bomb a synthetic rubber plant 4 miles from Auschwitz.

And the resources to mount 1000 Bomber raids as early as May,1942.

And lots of P-51s for escort duty by late 1943.


Incidentally, your reason as to why those camps weren't bombed would be helpful to staff at the Jewish Virtual Library. They chalk it up to inertia and indifference.
I'm fairly sure that a site run to propagandize to Israel would call it inertia and indifference, as opposed to the simple reality that fighting WWII required more effort than bombing a bunch of camps in the Soviet axis of advance. I mean really, that Stalin liberated the concentration camps and death camps (if we can call exchanging the Konzentrationlager for the Gulag Archipelago liberation, that is) is simple geography, not the fault of the USA and UK.
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Old May 4th, 2013, 09:11 PM   #187

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And yet, strangely enough, they had time to run numerous reconnaissance missions over Auschwitz.

And time to bomb a synthetic rubber plant 4 miles from Auschwitz.

And the resources to mount 1000 Bomber raids as early as May,1942.

And lots of P-51s for escort duty by late 1943.


Incidentally, your reason as to why those camps weren't bombed would be helpful to staff at the Jewish Virtual Library. They chalk it up to inertia and indifference.
You are talking utter rubbish on every point.
The P-51D's maximum range with external fuel tanks and lean throttle was 1650 statute miles and the B-17G with a paltry 6000lb bomb load was theoretically 2000 miles. The round trip in a straight line between Mildenhall and Krakow is 1748 miles and anyone who knows the slightest thing about the air war over Germany knows that one didn't fly in a straight line.
Although the P-51B was shipped to the VIIIth USAAF in November 1943 as a tactical fighter, the P-51D did not take up escort duties over Germany until February 1944 when the USAF first attacked Berlin.
The USAAF did not have aircraft with the range until airbases in Italy became available after May 1944.
The RAF Lancaster had the range and carried more than double the bomb load of a B-17, but Bomber Command only made night raids until the very end of the war. A night raid on an unmapped rural area was not a practical proposition. Incidentally, there was never a 1000 bomber raid with all Lancasters; more than half the RAF bomber strength was Wellingtons, Stirlings and Halifaxs.

Most of German occupied Europe was photographed thousands of times by RAF and USAAF aircraft and only a fraction of the films were ever developed or studied. The famous aerial shots of Auschwitz II were only found in an archive in the 1970s while Auschwitz III was photographed as a precursor to the several air raids on Monowitz it had no special significance.

From late 1944 some requests were made to bomb Auschwitz and were evaluated by British and American experts. The certainty and extent of casualties was made clear and Jewish authorities SPECIFICALLY the Executive of the Jewish Agency under David Ben Gurion OFFICIALLY requested that no camps holding Jews be bombed deliberately.
As it happens many labour, concentration and PoW camps were bombed accidentally throughout the war. Casualties were always high and escapes just about non-existent.


There has been a faction within the Jewish holocaust promotion industry to include both America and the UK as participants in the extermination of jews during WW2. The Jewish Virtual Library belongs to this faction and is not a trustworthy source. Jewish writers and historians have reacted against this move, William D. Rubinstein, James H. Kitchens, Richard H. Levy have all published works on the subject and Rubenstein's "The Myth of Rescue" is the definitive work on the subject, although vigorously attacked by Holocaust "Blamer" extremists.
Further reading here
Auschwitz_bombing_debate Auschwitz_bombing_debate
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Old May 4th, 2013, 09:12 PM   #188
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'What is, is that it's documented fact that US Army Air Corp. and RAF fighters and bombers indiscriminately strafed and bombed any and all German transport trains heading to the camps; those very same trains that were carrying life-sustaining food and medical supplies.'
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Documented by whom? Alex Jones and David Duke?
Granted there's no trains in this USAAF clip, but...
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Old May 4th, 2013, 09:35 PM   #189

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'What is, is that it's documented fact that US Army Air Corp. and RAF fighters and bombers indiscriminately strafed and bombed any and all German transport trains heading to the camps; those very same trains that were carrying life-sustaining food and medical supplies.'
Granted there's no trains in this USAAF clip, but...
1945 Strafing Farmers on Horse Drawn Vehicles! - YouTube
Both RAF 2nd TAF and their USAAF counterparts were given free reign to attack all transport anywhere, especially trains, from March 1944 onwards. As the Luftwaffe fighter defences crumbled USAAF escort fighters from VIIIth Air Force would join in to seek targets of opportunity.
However, 2nd TAF did not operate much further east than the Baltic ports and then only at the very end of the war. Any attacks in the east by the USAAF would have been targets of opportunity, not from train-busting sweeps and if they hit trains going to concentration camps that was just happenstance.

(Army Air Corps? They didn't exist after March 1942!)

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Old May 4th, 2013, 10:30 PM   #190
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You are talking utter rubbish on every point.
Every point?

Aerial photos were taken of Auschwitz, multiple times. √

The Monowitz industrial complex 4 miles from Auschwitz was bombed. √

An RAF 'thousand bomber raid' was made in May, 1942, against Cologne. √

I'll concede the P-51 point, although
'The 354th Fighter Group, dubbed "Pioneers," started flying P-51B's over France in December, 1943. Originally part of the Ninth Air Force, the 354th was loaned to the Eighth for bomber escort duty.' X
As for being too busy meeting other demands as the reason those camps- or more likely rail lines serving the camps - weren't cut by Allied bombers, the Jewish Virtual Library people offer other reasons, so this one might be helpful to them. √


If we can control the disparaging terminology, this thread may set a Historum time record for avoiding the chamber, given its topic.
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