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Old September 6th, 2013, 09:14 AM   #51

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Originally Posted by Nala77 View Post
is not revolution itself treason?
A traitor is one who lost
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Old September 9th, 2013, 01:44 PM   #52

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She was remarkably stupid and I think she was genuinely clueless of the situation in France and her impending doom.
Marie Antoinette was frivolous and overly concerned with her dress, pleasure and entertainments, but I don't think she was stupid. I don't think she was a total airhead as she is often portrayed.

She began to realize how much the public disliked her in 1785 with the very cold reception she received in Paris when she presented her second son to the French nation. That realization became even clearer to the Queen with public outrage that ensued later in 1785 and into 1786 with the Affair of the Queen's Necklace.

Up to this time, she had shrugged off the pamphlets against her, but by 1787, she was beginning to take them seriously.

The Queen attempted to counteract the pamphlets and tabloid campaign against her, by trying to present a more wholesome image of herself to the public as shown in this 1787 portrait of the Queen and her children by her favorite artist Elizabeth Vigee LeBrun:

Click the image to open in full size.

Yet, this late campaign by Marie Antoinette to restore her image in the view of the French people was not successful.

Seeing this painting of the 31-year old Queen and her young children in 1787, and her close-up image below, its hard to imagine ...
that within 6 years she would appear in a common court, so much reduced and aged from a year of imprisonment, accused and tried for her
life for the most heinous of crimes ... then convicted, paraded through the streets of Paris to be publicly beheaded by her former subjects.

Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.

Much of that transformation from grandeur to the gutter was the work of libel and vilification, the topic of this thread, and
its successful campaign to destroy Marie Antoinette, Queen of France.

Last edited by Axel; September 9th, 2013 at 02:24 PM.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 02:06 PM   #53

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Originally Posted by Axel View Post
Marie Antoinette was frivolous and overly concerned with her dress, pleasure and entertainments, but I don't think she was stupid. I don't think she was a total airhead as she is often portrayed.

She began to realize how much the public disliked her in 1785 with the very cold reception she received in Paris when she presented her second son to the French nation. That realization became even clearer to the Queen with public outrage that ensued later in 1785 and into 1786 with the Affair of the Queen's Necklace.

Up to this time, she had shrugged off the pamphlets against her, but by 1787, she was beginning to take them seriously.

The Queen attempted to counteract the pamphlets and tabloid campaign against her, by trying to present a more wholesome image of herself to the public as shown in this 1787 portrait of the Queen and her children by her favorite artist Elizabeth Vigee LeBrun:

Click the image to open in full size.

Yet, this late campaign by Marie Antoinette to restore her image in the view of the French people was not successful.
Seeing this painting of the Queen and her children in 1787, its hard to imagine that within 6 years she would be accused
and tried foer the most heinous crimes and then paraded through Paris to be publicly beheaded by her former subjects.

Click the image to open in full size.
Agreed; i do not think she was stupid-

I think all royalty are somewhat removed from "reality" or cannot estmiate that the situation will take a vicious turn.

This was the case with Alexandra Feodorovna as well, who incidentially identified with Marie Antoinette to a great degree
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Old September 9th, 2013, 03:28 PM   #54
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Whether she said 'let them eat cake' or not, the words signify the actions of the Royals and the contempt with which they held the French lower classes at the time...If they treated the lower classes with respect the headline in the papers may have said 'let them reign for a thousand years'.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 03:44 PM   #55

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Whether she said 'let them eat cake' or not, the words signify the actions of the Royals and the contempt with which they held the French lower classes at the time...If they treated the lower classes with respect the headline in the papers may have said 'let them reign for a thousand years'.
You know what is really interesting? i found that it is usually not the dirt poor people that start revolutions

they certainly grab arms and spill to the streets once it is started

but usually, it is some middle classish person fanning the fires first
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Old September 9th, 2013, 03:50 PM   #56
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You know what is really interesting? i found that it is usually not the dirt poor people that start revolutions

they certainly grab arms and spill to the streets once it is started

but usually, it is some middle classish person fanning the fires first
Of course it is. The lower classes don't have the access to the top because the nobels or middle class are in the way. There the guys to keep sweet if you want to keep the throne...and possibly your head.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 10:44 PM   #57

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What are your views of the pamphlets and press treatment of Queen Marie Antoinette?

- Do you agree there was a campaign to attack and discredit her?
Yes, there was a campaign to attack and discredit her.

- If so, who were her attackers? And what was their objective?
This is particularly hard question to answer, ever since Marie had come to France there had been attacks and accussations and towards the end of her tenure as Queen they increased. Most likely the people who would become involved in the overthrowing of the monarchy.

- Its said where there is fire, there is first smoke do you see Marie Antoinette at all complicit in her own distruction? Or do you see her as simply a victim?
I don't think she is this great evil lewd woman that everyone suggests she is. She did not bring France into debt, she may have possibly had an extra marital affair with Fersen, and loved to have privacy which was not common for a Queen of France. It was her strange ways, the fact she was Austrian that added fuel to the fire but there was hardly any smoke.

- How do you assess the effect of these pamphlets on the reputation of Marie Antoinette? On the events of the French revolution? On the final treatment and fate of Marie Antoinette?
The effects of the pamphlets were devastating to the reputation of Marie Antoinette and the monarchy overall. It was easy to believe the pamphlets because people wanted to believe that Antoinette was such a woman as depicted in them.
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Old September 12th, 2013, 10:36 AM   #58

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel Click the image to open in full size.
Marie Antoinette was frivolous and overly concerned with her dress, pleasure and entertainments, but I don't think she was stupid. I don't think she was a total airhead as she is often portrayed.

She began to realize how much the public disliked her in 1785 with the very cold reception she received in Paris when she presented her second son to the French nation. That realization became even clearer to the Queen with public outrage that ensued later in 1785 and into 1786 with the Affair of the Queen's Necklace.

Up to this time, she had shrugged off the pamphlets against her, but by 1787, she was beginning to take them seriously.

The Queen attempted to counteract the pamphlets and tabloid campaign against her, by trying to present a more wholesome image of herself to the public as shown in this 1787 portrait of the Queen and her children by her favorite artist Elizabeth Vigee LeBrun:

Click the image to open in full size.

Yet, this late campaign by Marie Antoinette to restore her image in the view of the French people was not successful.
Seeing this painting of the Queen and her children in 1787, its hard to imagine that within 6 years she would be accused
and tried foer the most heinous crimes and then paraded through Paris to be publicly beheaded by her former subjects.

Click the image to open in full size.


Agreed; i do not think she was stupid-

I think all royalty are somewhat removed from "reality" or cannot estmiate that the situation will take a vicious turn.

This was the case with Alexandra Feodorovna as well, who incidentially identified with Marie Antoinette to a great degree
Nala, I agree with you that Marie Antoinette was stupid. After the revolutions of the 18th and 19th centuries, we can now say the royals should have been more responsive to their people. However, there had never been a revolution of the poor against the rich as occurred in France in 1789-94. As Queen, Marie Antoinette was quite pampered and spoiled and had little contact with the common people.

As said, when Marie Antoinette did begin to realize how much hated she was, she tried to regain favor in the eyes of the people but by then it was too late.
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Old September 12th, 2013, 10:45 AM   #59

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This was the case with Alexandra Feodorovna as well, who incidentially identified with Marie Antoinette to a great degree
Yes, Czarina Alexandra Feodorovna did indeed identify with Marie Antoinette. When the Czar and Czarina visited France in 1897, Alexandra Feodorovna asked to sleep in Marie Antoinette's bed at Versailles.

There was also a portrait tapestry of Marie Antoinette and her children, a gift fromt he French government, that the Czarina had hung quite prominently in her formal reception room.

Click the image to open in full size.

Czarina Alexandra Feodorovna, like Marie Antoinette, an unpopular foreign born queen, was also subject to a vicious smeer campaign with regard to her relations with Rasputin.

Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.
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Old September 12th, 2013, 11:11 AM   #60

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Originally Posted by Eamonn10 View Post
Whether she said 'let them eat cake' or not, the words signify the actions of the Royals and the contempt with which they held the French lower classes at the time...If they treated the lower classes with respect the headline in the papers may have said 'let them reign for a thousand years'.
I do not think Marie Antoinette or Louis held the poor in contempt. On the contrary, they gave generously to the poor in times of hardship, and took more of an interest in their welfare than most upper class people.
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