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View Poll Results: Why is Beria less infamous than Himmler?
The victors write the history books 16 38.10%
The losers are more infamous because they didn't have history books censored about them 2 4.76%
Himmler had a specific factor Beria did not (specify) 2 4.76%
Beria had a specific factor Himmler did not (specify) 1 2.38%
The Nazis have a mystique that the USSR does not 9 21.43%
Beria had the benefit of a government minimizing his crimes, not just cranks 3 7.14%
What's a Beria? 2 4.76%
Other 7 16.67%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 28th, 2013, 08:57 AM   #31

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I think its due to Nazi Germany having been an enemy of the United States and Britain, while Beria's crimes were committed while the Soviet Union was still an ally. Thanks to war reporting and propaganda Himmler was quite well known (and loathed) by the British and American public during the Second War, even before the discovery of the camps. In contrast probably very few would have known who Beria was, as he was to a much greater extent out of the media spotlight.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 09:25 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
Well, what types of resources the U.S. has helped Russia? Oil, coal, iron?-No. U.S. helped transport aircraft, it's true. But to use it needs soldiers. Soldiers to hate Stalin's regime? It's good joke HAHAHA D day was 1944.06.04. But by that moment almost all territory of USSR was free.
Incredible amounts. For example, almost all the food of the Red army, all the shoes, 80% of the high fractions to the fuels, 80% of the aluminium, etc. Crucial materials.
When USA opened Second front, the battles were still on Soviet teritory in 1944.

Of course this does not decrease the enormous contribution of USSR and the great heroism of the ppl.

But without US help they were going to loose the war.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 09:29 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Scaeva View Post
I think its due to Nazi Germany having been an enemy of the United States and Britain, while Beria's crimes were committed while the Soviet Union was still an ally. Thanks to war reporting and propaganda Himmler was quite well known (and loathed) by the British and American public during the Second War, even before the discovery of the camps. In contrast probably very few would have known who Beria was, as he was to a much greater extent out of the media spotlight.
And something else - Beria was not the only one. Soviet regime had longer history and a lot of heroes... And Beria is not the biggest criminal of them, actually.
Now he is considered to decrease the repressions, not to increase them.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 09:52 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
When USA opened Second front, the battles were still on Soviet teritory in 1944.
That's right, but I've written
Quote:
D day was 1944.06.04. But by that moment almost all territory of USSR was free
Quote:
80% of the high fractions to the fuels, 80% of the aluminium,
What the source of that information?
Quote:
all the shoes
Are you sure? I never heard that US has made a kersey boots in that period and sent it to USSR.
Quote:
But without US help they were going to loose the war.
this is a controversial question
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Old July 28th, 2013, 10:41 AM   #35
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Hah!!!????? I now see that not of the links open????

They were really working when I saw them 2 years ago..... ???
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Old July 28th, 2013, 10:51 AM   #36

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KGB,

I deleted your links to non-English language sites.

In the future, just translate the content of those sites and paste the translations onto this site. Thank-you for your future devotion to the rules of Historum.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 11:39 AM   #37

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Originally Posted by michael mills View Post
Perhaps you should have put that time and effort into doing some actual research into Beria's career, and what the Soviet man in the street thought about him.

For example, you could have consulted the Wikipedia article on Beria, which contains these examples of his philosemitism:

Lavrentiy Beria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I believe the reason your first post looked offensive was not because you mentioned Beria's philosemitism, but because you stated that Himmler's war crimes against the Jews were emphasized by historians. They were not, but anti-Semitism was not his invention, and I think that personality-wise, Beria and Himmler were similar.

There have been multiple assumptions about Beria's own Jewish background. I do not know if they were true. He was definitely not a Bolshevik, he worked for Musavatists in Baku and there had been multiple allegations that he had been Spying for the Britains in Baku, in the 20-es. I think we shall never know. I view him as a well-educated, ruthless, smart, sadistic but a very practical man. He always performed the way Stalin wanted, to stay in power. If staying in power meant personal participation in tortures and beatings of the arrested in the 30-es, he performed his best. But Stalin made him the head of the A-bomb project not because he was a torturer. He was also the organizer. The physicists who worked at the project were ridiculing his lack of basic knowledge, but he must have been educated enough to grasp something. If Stalin wanted to start anti-Semitic campaign, Beria participated, but the moment Stalin died, it was all stopped because Beria understood that politically it was not necessary. Personally he suffered no paranoia and he always saw the reason. This is why I believe that he saw the futility of the Soviet system. He did not make the Revolution, he had been a Menshevik.
He had amazing survival skills. in Germany, he would have made worse Himmler than Himmler himself, but in the SU, anti-Semitism had never been the policy before "the Doctors' plot".

Many sources mention Himmler's grandmother being Jewish. If so, Himmler had had a personal reason to be the worst anti-Semite in Hitler's Germany, to stay alive. He could not afford, like Goering, to say "in my ministry, I decide who is a Jew and who is not". In the Sovirt Union, Himmler could have made another Beria. Personally, they were, indeed, very much alike, reasonable, practical, cowardly, with great survival skills. Only there is no evidence of Himmler suffering from personal sexual deviancy like Beria had.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 11:55 AM   #38

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Originally Posted by KGB View Post
Stalin won the war because of the US lend-lease help. And because of the second front. Otherwise, the totally destroyed pre-war Red army would have never get the resources, needed to defeat Germany.

Besides, what do you mean "bad"? A regime can be worst in the world and to win wars...
I hope no one here thinks I am a Stalinist, and neither is my husband, but we both feel that the WWII history the way it is taught in the US is definitely minimizing the role of the SU and inflating the role of the US. I agree with you about the lend-lease. But the second front... Really? This war was already being won, and at a rapid pace, and the most important thing the Second front did was to save the whole Europe of becoming one Eastern Bloc. Opening of the Second Front was hopelessly delayed, it was needed in 41, 42,43... But no one wanted to die for some barbarian country, of course, or for the communist regime (which I understand). I am not blaming the US for not opening the Second front earlier, and I believe that lend-lease was incredibly important (although it was a "lease"), but I recently heard from a kid going to middle school that "the WWII was between Germany, US and Japan". If we want our kids to know history, we should stop telling them that the D-day was the most important event that had ever happened.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 12:00 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
KGB,

I deleted your links to non-English language sites.

In the future, just translate the content of those sites and paste the translations onto this site. Thank-you for your future devotion to the rules of Historum.

But it is impossible to translate such an information - those are Russian articles for the Land - Lease - I posted them because Andrey is Russian or Ukrainian.

But OK, I will not object the rules, or at least your interpretation of them.

There was one big table, trough the Bulgarian forum, which was and official USA statistic table.

Anyway - if Andrey or someone else wants the data, they can write in PM.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 12:05 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by arkteia View Post
I hope no one here thinks I am a Stalinist, and neither is my husband, but we both feel that the WWII history the way it is taught in the US is definitely minimizing the role of the SU and inflating the role of the US. I agree with you about the lend-lease. But the second front... Really? This war was already being won, and at a rapid pace, and the most important thing the Second front did was to save the whole Europe of becoming one Eastern Bloc. Opening of the Second Front was hopelessly delayed, it was needed in 41, 42,43... But no one wanted to die for some barbarian country, of course, or for the communist regime (which I understand). I am not blaming the US for not opening the Second front earlier, and I believe that lend-lease was incredibly important (although it was a "lease"), but I recently heard from a kid going to middle school that "the WWII was between Germany, US and Japan". If we want our kids to know history, we should stop telling them that the D-day was the most important event that had ever happened.
Well, first of all, we here have historical discussion, so we cannot be stalinists, or hitlerists, or whatever

This will be a long dispute, and the politics is still messed in there, which will make it longer.. But still - let`s try to see the things strictly historically.

Second front and specially bombing of Germany were very, very important. Suppose there were not African and Italian campaign? The D-day was late, but the war in the Ocean, the African campaign.. All that was critical for German capacity. Bombing specially.
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