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Old October 31st, 2012, 09:44 AM   #21

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Originally Posted by funakison View Post
No i meant volkstrum divisions, i was trying to distinguish between the elite volunteer divisions and what were essentialy home guard units made up of the old and sick. They were indeed SS in name but rather less than an elite force
Volkssturm divisions did never exist. The highest level was the batallion. You perhaps have the 78. Volks-Strumdivision in your mind. But his division has its name from the 79. Sturmdivision and, like the Volksgrenadier divisions, added "Volks" to the name. But this had nothing to do with the Volkssturm.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 12:14 PM   #22

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Originally Posted by Kampfpanzer View Post
Allgemeine SS (Administrative)
Waffen SS (Military)
Toetenkopfverbaende (Concentration camp guard)
This is correct. Excellent book that explains the differences of these three sections and then focus on Waffen SS is George Stein´s: Waffen SS: Hitler´s Elite Guard At War 1939-1945
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Old November 10th, 2012, 12:49 PM   #23

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The SA had been replaced by the SS and so the SA were branded as homosexuals and killed.
I didn't see this before
Ähm, well. The SA had 3.5 million members at those days. I am quite sure they weren't all gay and shot.
But serious. There is a lot of misconception about SS and SA. The SA was never really controlled by Hitler. The roots lay in bavarian Free korps, the leaders were usually former soldiers of the Imperial army or exactly th bavarian army. The SS was founded as body guards of Hitler, because Hitler didn't trust the SA and its leaders. The clique around Röhm was indeed gay or at least bi-sexual. They had orgies and Röhm had stooges, which searched for youg boys for his sex parties. So it was an early form of bunga bunga. They were indeed branded as homosexuals after the putsch, but not because this was the reason for the putsch, the SS used it just as excuse. A lot knew about it before and simply ignored it.

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Old November 10th, 2012, 12:50 PM   #24

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This is correct. Excellent book that explains the differences of these three sections and then focus on Waffen SS is George Stein´s: Waffen SS: Hitler´s Elite Guard At War 1939-1945
Yes, indeed. A very good book.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 02:24 PM   #25

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Volkssturm divisions did never exist. The highest level was the batallion. You perhaps have the 78. Volks-Strumdivision in your mind. But his division has its name from the 79. Sturmdivision and, like the Volksgrenadier divisions, added "Volks" to the name. But this had nothing to do with the Volkssturm.
I made a typing error. Of course the 78th Volks-Sturmdivision had its name from the 78th Sturmdivision, not the 79th.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 05:02 PM   #26

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Originally Posted by beorna View Post
I didn't see this before
Ähm, well. The SA had 3.5 million members at those days. I am quite sure they weren't all gay and shot.
But serious. There is a lot of misconception about SS and SA. The SA was never really controlled by Hitler. The roots lay in bavarian Free korps, the leaders were usually former soldiers of the Imperial army or exactly th bavarian army. The SS was founded as body guards of Hitler, because Hitler didn't trust the SA and its leaders. The clique around Röhm was indeed gay or at least bi-sexual. They had orgies and Röhm had stooges, which searched for youg boys for his sex parties. So it was an early form of bunga bunga. They were indeed branded as homosexuals after the putsch, but not because this was the reason for the putsch, the SS used it just as excuse. A lot knew about it before and simply ignored it.
Its not like the SS was short of gay members themselves.

The anti-gay thing was mostly an obsession of the Prussian ruling class and was introduced by Kaiser Wilhelm on German unification, Roehm was based in Bavaria which had a far more relaxed attitude about it.

Which is odd because Berlin was one of the most gay friendly cities in europe or the world, there were hundreds of gay clubs and the gay nationalist scene was thriving with abeleif that being gay made you the intellectual and physical elite of the white races in the tradition od the Spartans and the Theban sacred band. Look up Adolf Brand.

The Nazi party was in a constant civil war between the back to nature purists who wanted free love, nudism and getting in touch with the earth and restoring Germany to an agricultural warrior/farmer utopia and the conservative kirche, kinder kuche nationalists who wanted to get rid of all that thing.

Brands idea of older men grooming young boys in old Spartan style look particularly creepy today and werent much better back then, Roehm didnt care about anybody, he loved fighting and conflict so annoying staid society with outrageause homosexuality and causing fights was his idea of heaven.
The long knives were out for both men, all they needed was for Hitler to give permission and he did once he'd been fed the idea Roehm was plotting a coup.
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