Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > European History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

European History European History Forum - Western and Eastern Europe including the British Isles, Scandinavia, Russia


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 22nd, 2013, 09:29 AM   #1

koseku's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Mar 2012
From: Istanbul
Posts: 550
"Turkish" term referring to all Ottomans by Europeans


In most European sources, Ottoman people were called as "Turkish people"; but due to Ottomans, they never called themself as Turkish, but Ottoman muslim or non-muslim(gayrimüslim). Now what makes Europeans call Ottoman "Turkish"? The language? The creators? The leaders?

As far as I know "Turkish" term was started to be used by Ataturk's reforms to refer the new country's people. Before that, Ottomans didn't like to call "Turkish" their own people because Islam doesn't discriminate races.
koseku is offline  
Remove Ads
Old December 22nd, 2013, 10:16 AM   #2
KGB
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,352

The answer is - the language. Turkish language always had that name and ppl who spoke it has been called Turkish. Ottomans - this is the Imperial people, people, who called themselves "orthodox" (do not mistake with Orthodox christians), i.e. those with right faith.

But the ethnicity of the Ottomans was Turks mostly, so they have always been called so. And, when the modern Turkish nation was born, it called itself Turkey.
KGB is offline  
Old December 22nd, 2013, 11:57 AM   #3

koseku's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Mar 2012
From: Istanbul
Posts: 550

Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
But the ethnicity of the Ottomans was Turks mostly
Was there a certain Turkish ethnicity population or most of the people were already mixed with other races like Arabs, Balkanians, Armenians, Greeks etc at the end?
koseku is offline  
Old December 22nd, 2013, 08:23 PM   #4
KGB
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,352

Well, I think there was - despite the fact, that a lot of people mixed in there, due to the multinational character of the Empire.
KGB is offline  
Old December 22nd, 2013, 09:40 PM   #5

WeisSaul's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Mar 2012
From: New Amsterdam
Posts: 2,836

Turks formed the leadership of the Empire and were the ones associating with foreign diplomats. Since it was the Turks running things when the Ottoman Empire did something people would say look at what the Turks are up to.

Along with the Turks you also had the Janissaries (who would end up Turkicized) as well the Albanians (who would speak Turkish when performing their governmental duties). The Albanian situation probably applies to Arabs who occupied a high rank in the Empire as wall. Turkish was the language used.

Fascinatingly, during the Ottoman Empire the Turk was the westerner's stereotype of a muslim. With the end of the empire the Arab would come to be the westerner's image of a muslim later on.
WeisSaul is offline  
Old December 22nd, 2013, 09:48 PM   #6

Druzhina's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Jul 2013
From: Australia
Posts: 745

During the 17th-18th centuries the English seem to have referred to "Turkey" rather than "The Ottoman Empire". Merchants who dealt with the Ottoman Empire were called "Turkey Merchants" in the "Turkey Convoy" and Guinea Fowl bought in north Africa as "Turkey Birds". So if the land is Turkey, the inhabitants are Turkish. The speakers of a language get to decide the name they use for foreign places.

Is the Turkish name for England pronounced exactly as the English pronounce it, or even similar? Why don't the English or Turks refer to Deutschland? Etc.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume and Soldiers
Druzhina is offline  
Old December 22nd, 2013, 09:50 PM   #7
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Jun 2013
From: Mundo Nuevo
Posts: 1,445

Quote:
Originally Posted by koseku View Post
In most European sources, Ottoman people were called as "Turkish people"; but due to Ottomans, they never called themself as Turkish, but Ottoman muslim or non-muslim(gayrimüslim). Now what makes Europeans call Ottoman "Turkish"? The language? The creators? The leaders?

As far as I know "Turkish" term was started to be used by Ataturk's reforms to refer the new country's people. Before that, Ottomans didn't like to call "Turkish" their own people because Islam doesn't discriminate races.
You're talking about this right.

Ideology and Historiography: State, Society and Intellectuals in Modern Turkey - Kaan Durukan - Google Books

The Genesis of Young Ottoman Thought: A Study in the Modernization of ... - ^erif Mardin - Google Books

Europeanization and Tolerance in Turkey: The Myth of Toleration - Ayhan Kaya - Google Books

Quote:
Originally Posted by koseku View Post
Was there a certain Turkish ethnicity population or most of the people were already mixed with other races like Arabs, Balkanians, Armenians, Greeks etc at the end?
Yoruk turkmen preserve their nomadic roots and seperate ethnicity, although they were no doubt mixed too. Avoiding mixing was impossible. Even Turkmens in Turkmenistan mixed with Persian slave women.

Yörüks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
unity is offline  
Old December 23rd, 2013, 12:29 AM   #8
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,700

Quote:
Originally Posted by koseku View Post
Was there a certain Turkish ethnicity population or most of the people were already mixed with other races like Arabs, Balkanians, Armenians, Greeks etc at the end?
Well, no group is pure. Most every group of people, everywhere, are going to be mixed with nearby groups, unless there's been some strong religious or caste restriction against it. Ethnic groups are usually just defined by language and culture. A group or tribe that retains a certain language and culture is going to have some sort of genetic continuity with past versions of the group, the fact that other groups have mixed in by intermarriage and that the group is not "pure" is inconsequential. The Turkish ethnicity obviously existed at the time.

Last edited by Tripwire; December 23rd, 2013 at 12:36 AM.
Tripwire is offline  
Old December 23rd, 2013, 06:37 AM   #9
Archivist
 
Joined: May 2013
From: there
Posts: 111

I know the Dutch have been using the word Turk for 400 years.
Claas is offline  
Old December 23rd, 2013, 10:06 AM   #10
KGB
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,352

Which clearly shows, that the ethnicity of the Turks were well known in Europe early enough.
KGB is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > European History

Tags
europeans, ottomans, referring, term, turkish, turkishottoman



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Isn't the term "Middle ages" Euro-Centric? lokariototal Medieval and Byzantine History 51 December 16th, 2015 07:21 AM
Origins of Turkish Song? ("Ah! Berelim," 1973) Melanthia Art and Cultural History 1 August 13th, 2013 10:09 AM
Is the term "Dark Ages" unfair? charles brough European History 111 May 10th, 2012 07:15 AM
The term "dark ages" fair? jeroenrottgering European History 120 October 6th, 2011 09:27 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.