Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > European History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

European History European History Forum - Western and Eastern Europe including the British Isles, Scandinavia, Russia


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old April 22nd, 2014, 12:48 PM   #21
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Apr 2014
From: EU
Posts: 370

Quote:
Originally Posted by deaf tuner View Post
And there are two peoples missing : jews and gypsies. When it comes to music, at least in Central and Eastern Europe their contribution is absolutely fundamental.
In what more exactly?
Rodan is offline  
Remove Ads
Old April 22nd, 2014, 12:53 PM   #22

deaf tuner's Avatar
hier is da feestje !!!
 
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Europe
Posts: 10,126
Blog Entries: 26

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodan View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlutzskrbJw#aid=P8AtZ6ahu-A

I would like to know what you believe in this costumes and general Bulgarian folk is the most representative from that map?
Don't think You can say " most representative"! Regional specifics are very strong, not only at Bulgarians, but all people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodan View Post
*It is hard not to notice 1 and 2 even 8(only the men) that have a big similarity with romanian folk like you can see in the video.
And not only Romanians. You can find big similarities also with costumes from Albania, Greece.
deaf tuner is offline  
Old April 22nd, 2014, 01:05 PM   #23

deaf tuner's Avatar
hier is da feestje !!!
 
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Europe
Posts: 10,126
Blog Entries: 26

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodan View Post
In what more exactly?
They were for a long time the only "professional" musicians. The DJ of that time if You want
As they were hired, they had to play what they were asked. Meaning not their own music. Bulgarian,Romanian,Hungarian, Ukranian, whatever. Thus accelerating exchanges between different cultures. Not to mention that as professionals, they made instrumental technique evolve and develop.
deaf tuner is offline  
Old April 22nd, 2014, 01:11 PM   #24
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Apr 2014
From: EU
Posts: 370

Quote:
Originally Posted by deaf tuner View Post
Don't think You can say " most representative"! Regional specifics are very strong, not only at Bulgarians, but all people.



And not only Romanians. You can find big similarities also with costumes from Albania, Greece.
I find the difference to big between the regions.

Do you want to say that between 1,2 even 3 and 8 we can find similarities in Greece, Albania, Romania and Bulgaria?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denitsa View Post

Bulgarian folklore has 7 big ethnographic regions: Thrace, Dobrudzha, Strandzha, Macedonia, Shopluk, Northern and Rhodope. The main dance is "horo" which is well known among the Balkan people and "rachenitsa".

Click the image to open in full size.

* We are exactly were the op asked for:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neagu View Post
What is similar between european countries in folk and why, and the share of folklore

Last edited by Rodan; April 22nd, 2014 at 01:24 PM.
Rodan is offline  
Old April 22nd, 2014, 01:18 PM   #25
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Apr 2014
From: EU
Posts: 370

Quote:
Originally Posted by deaf tuner View Post
They were for a long time the only "professional" musicians. The DJ of that time if You want
As they were hired, they had to play what they were asked. Meaning not their own music. Bulgarian,Romanian,Hungarian, Ukranian, whatever. Thus accelerating exchanges between different cultures. Not to mention that as professionals, they made instrumental technique evolve and develop.
You are to general in your view and you made me very curios, can you be more precise?
Rodan is offline  
Old April 22nd, 2014, 01:27 PM   #26

deaf tuner's Avatar
hier is da feestje !!!
 
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Europe
Posts: 10,126
Blog Entries: 26

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodan View Post
I find the difference to big between the regions.
maybe. But it not anusual.
You said Romanian, so look at the differences in romanian costumes:

http://www.webphoto.ro/poze/calusari/maramures.jpg
http://www.webphoto.ro/poze/calusari...i_populare.jpg
http://curentul.net/wp-content/uploa...a-inaltime.jpg

We can go on with Hungarians too, Greeks, French, Italians, a.s.o.
Once again, in popular costumes, quit often the differences are big. Everywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodan View Post
Do you want to say that between 1,3 and 8 we can find similarities in Greece, Albania, Romania and Bulgaria?
Yes
deaf tuner is offline  
Old April 22nd, 2014, 01:29 PM   #27

Denitsa's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Apr 2014
From: Bulgaria
Posts: 385

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodan View Post
I would like to know what you believe in this costumes and general Bulgarian folk is the most representative from that map?

*It is hard not to notice 1 and 2 even 8(only the men in left) that have a big similarity with romanian folk like you can see in the video.
I have always said that people from different ethnicity who live in the same region or in the border zone have more common culture than their ethnic brothers who are living in another distant region. Like the costumes' similarities between Bulgarians from the North and Romanians from the South that you mentioned, or like Bucovina's Romanian costume and the southern Ukranian. It's about influence, same resourses in the area, trade and so on.

All can be representative, this is how our ancestors dressed up.


The Bulgarian national costume: There are 4 female types: sukman, saya, with 1 apron, with 2 aprons. And 2 male types: white and black.

I've seen only with 2 aprons type in the Romanian female costume and white type in the male. Probably you use another terminology.

Last edited by Denitsa; April 22nd, 2014 at 01:31 PM.
Denitsa is offline  
Old April 22nd, 2014, 01:37 PM   #28

deaf tuner's Avatar
hier is da feestje !!!
 
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Europe
Posts: 10,126
Blog Entries: 26

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denitsa View Post
I have always said that people from different ethnicity who live in the same region or in the border zone have more common culture than their ethnic brothers who are living in another distant region. Like the costumes' similarities between Bulgarians from the North and Romanians from the South that you mentioned, or like Bucovina's Romanian costume and the southern Ukranian. It's about influence, same resourses in the area, trade and so on.
And I will add that the frontier, as we know it now, exists only for the last 100-150 centuries. You had Romanians/wlachs south Danube, Bulgarians in north, and earlier in history the only thing could stop them for crossing the river was bad weather ( or too much boose after a wedding ), not a passeport !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denitsa View Post
I have always said that people from different ethnicity who live in the same region or in the border zone have more common culture than their ethnic brothers who are living in another distant region.
I totally agree. That's why I find the first scheme absurd.

Last edited by deaf tuner; April 22nd, 2014 at 01:46 PM.
deaf tuner is offline  
Old April 22nd, 2014, 02:04 PM   #29
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Apr 2014
From: EU
Posts: 370

Ok i am glad you are near my logic.

But why we call it "bulgarian" on that map when it is bulgarian with romanian (vlach/daco/thracian/roman) influence or vice versa. I will be glad denitsa to say next "Well are not thracians/latinise thracians" a part of our commune heritage?" but it is hard when 60-70% of bulgarians on this forum almost refute this idea.

Next, i don't believe that romanian costumes are so far away like we see on the Bulgarians map, not to mention you can find the same number of models not changed in Albania, Greece, Serbia, Ukraine, Bulgaria even Poland. The similarity point in commune are the vlachs(1,2,8).

So see this is why the similarities. I am sure we have in Romania some ukrainian popular folk, bulgarian, szekely with some small romanian influence but we don't call it romanian. This is my point.

So this is way i asked her what is more representative from that map for the bulgarians.


Vlach dance, Vidin region:
aromanian dance:

Timok dance Serbia

Poland vlachs you can find in this video.

I agree with this 100%:
Quote:
And I will add that the frontier, as we know it now, exists only for the last 100-150 centuries. You had Romanians/wlachs south Danube, Bulgarians in north, and earlier in history the only thing could stop them for crossing the river was bad weather ( or too much boose after a wedding ), not a passeport !
Quote:
I have always said that people from different ethnicity who live in the same region or in the border zone have more common culture than their ethnic brothers who are living in another distant region. Like the costumes' similarities between Bulgarians from the North and Romanians from the South that you mentioned, or like Bucovina's Romanian costume and the southern Ukranian. It's about influence, same resourses in the area, trade and so on.

All can be representative, this is how our ancestors dressed up.
I have a question denitsa the "macedonians"(Fyromers) have martenitza?

Last edited by Rodan; April 22nd, 2014 at 02:45 PM.
Rodan is offline  
Old April 22nd, 2014, 02:18 PM   #30
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Apr 2014
From: EU
Posts: 370

Quote:
Originally Posted by deaf tuner View Post
They were for a long time the only "professional" musicians. The DJ of that time if You want
As they were hired, they had to play what they were asked. Meaning not their own music. Bulgarian,Romanian,Hungarian, Ukranian, whatever. Thus accelerating exchanges between different cultures. Not to mention that as professionals, they made instrumental technique evolve and develop.
I have read only the title of this article few days ago but because of you i read it now.

De la c?l?i, la l?utari - istoria ?iganilor din ??rile Romne | Historia
The executioners, the musicians - Gypsies in the Romanian history

sry google translate......................................... ........................................

Executioners in the Middle Ages

In several European countries met in many cases Gypsies job of executioners . in Wallachia became notorious executioner Alexander the Rau case , I had to execute Michael , the future ruler of the country and the first unifier of Romanians. Michael the Brave was up on the scaffold and the executioner had an ax to behead him . It is said that the Gypsy had been a servant of Michael and " intimidated by the imposing figure of rejected ax broke a run " . And Stefan Tomsa had a gypsy executioner . Miron Costin wrote: " He was a gypsy executioner , it is said pierzatoriu people, gypsy thick and high body. Cry He often pointing to landowners : - We have gained God, rams , good santu of giunghiat " . The same fact we tell and T. Alberti , Italian merchant that mention cruelty by Mr. . The last executioner of Moldova was still a gypsy , Gabriel embraced . It was described as " a gypsy giant in body , Pagan slut in front of you with a look at the summer fever teeth glance " . On 25 October 1847 the last execution carried out and say that life ended Secu Monastery monk .

Giovanandrea Gromo who visited Transylvania in 1564 , wrote , referring to Szecklers as : " Among them lives a large number of gypsies that serve to work the land ." Writing documents mentions the Gypsies , monasteries or noble slaves who worked in agriculture and were called " gypsies field " and which were part of the " caste vătraşi " . L. P. Baltasar von Campenhausen , in 1787 , he remembers the gypsies spoon , not many , who lived in villages and practice agriculture .
A distinctive categorization of trades done and L. Spallanzani , who describes Transylvania 1785 : Gypsies who lived in slums and were blacksmiths and musicians , those who dwell in tents and did little things and the nomads called " Gypsy Egyptians" and that the often were thieves.
B. Haquet , who knew all three Romanian countries , making a division of the Gypsies by owner, otherwise judicious : Gypsy royal , noble Gypsy , Gypsy monastery . sees as being lazy , working only when ii need hand workmanship and their work consists of copper , iron, noble metals , the poor did spoons, baskets , they went from house to house and thus begging . H. von Reimers , in 1793 , he was the Gypsies in Bucharest on all streets , and many of them worked in flower shops .

Englishman W. Wilkinson, who was in Wallachia during Caragea , gypsies are considered state ( " free to wander around " but to pay an annual tax of 40 piastres for all those over age 15 ), which deals with manufacturing and selling iron tools , music and masonry and private Gypsies belonging to the boyars were servants or working in the vineyards.

Gypsies royal
A special category were gypsies royal "that had purpose to collect gold, which is found mostly in spring, after snowmelt in rivers of Romanian country , but especially in Dambovita , which is purest gold ... Every goldsmith , so are called , must bring a touch a year , it is his tax "as note Kreuchely L. and I. Iacovenco wrote:" Gypsies royal wives out of these rivers for householders each year about 2,400 drachmas sand gold " and also C. Guiglemo Ludolf informs us gypsies who gather gold from goldsmiths Dmbovita and pay a tribute every June . G. Griselini reminiscent of gypsies goldsmiths Banat and I called his country Romanian Gypsy , you get gold by washing sand and gravel brought by mountains.
W. von Bauer achieve such sharing Gypsies : slaves of gentlemen ( Gypsy , dancing bears , laieti and vatrasii - " those who live in villages are exempt from taxes and working for their masters " ) and enslaved boyars . About Gypsy said that there are carpenters and ursarii " are called so after the bears that wander the country to earn a penny , they are also blacksmiths " and " working laietii brass and devote all kinds of craft blanks" .

J. Lebprecht believe that gypsies are divided " into two categories , namely: those with residence, which deals in part with agriculture, some with crafts and especially the blacksmith , and some of their living out of musicians, is progressing well and go a quiet life , then gypsies porch , which are stable and scour the country " . Baron von Campenhausen reminds on " burcasi " caste " dire " living in the woods in summer , winter, piles of garbage on the villages and towns , pay a small tax . It was said that stealing children and horses. A special group is " netotii " (those with all our mind ) ; had a craft , living in animal housing had no tents, no carts , wandering the country , did robberies , thieves , and even ate with Steele. Were seen as cruel , without law and without a master . They came from the Habsburg Empire at the end of the eighteenth century and although they were small in number , were a big problem for the authorities.

fiddlers
A " caste " was the great gypsy musicians , considered privileged . The first mention of a gypsy fiddler dates from 1568 , when Peter the Younger 's strengthens Dinga , great seneschal more room Gypsies, among which is remembered " Stoica alautar " . In 1645 , the Commission held a gypsy fiddler Apostolache " Tudor viorariul son of Dumitru Zlatar " . Among slaves Bisericani monastery in Neamt County is in 1634 and Radul - "Gypsy cimpoias " . Sometimes musicians nobles entrusted their slaves in Ottoman music apprenticeship . in 1578, Stefan , former Lord Steward , he gave Stoica, son of Opriş Gypsy "a Turkish Cobzari , namely Curtu as they learned Cobuz and gave him a rough 1500 and a horse and a bedpan " . It was also mention some "Marin guslar " during Matei Basarab , in 1650 .
W. Wilkinson said that Gypsies possessed a native ease and rapidity remarkable to learn the art of music you prefer other occupations . General C. von Tige be impressed by "a lot of gypsies , with dulcimer and their flutes , they did play with great grace 12 bears " that he meets the Brancoveni , in Oltenia, 1727 . Gypsies dancing bears were known for their skill in music . They stopped at the crossing of major roads, which organized local fairs . Bears did play " either or beating tambourines tact with large spurs as that and I clung to the heels and make a lot of noise when hitting each other ," as F. Recordon wrote .

A. Wolf mentioned that the gypsy musicians interpret and vulgar " songs of the street " and said that Gypsies von Campenhausen musicians singing not only feasts , but also at funerals , dance and sing mixing with lamentations . Landowner Ionita Sing to its parties have a format of six gypsy folk , and Cobzari Scripcari and treasurer Iordache Roset Hetman Roznovanu or brought to their feasts C. Ghica 's famous folk music bands musicians Anghel Barbu .
Existed throughout the Middle Ages several releases from bondage for outstanding service to the owner. Of those released , some have come to hold rank and riches . One case is that of servant became famous gypsy Razvan , which came up in Moldavia . Balcescu wrote: " This man had the terrible death by merit and misfortune to be raised from the dust upon the throne of his country . Born gypsy , a nation ordained for centuries to slavery , he looks in those days , more patriotic than the Moldovan neaoş . And only helped his sword the brave submitted his name to string the mighty rulers of Moldova " .

Many slaves Gypsies in Romanian Moldova and Romania
In Moldova and Romania gypsies are more like anywhere in Europe, says General A. Langeron in 1790 as Baron von Campenhausen believes that no country in Europe are not as Gypsies. F. von Bauer mention that in 1778 , in the Romanian " all Romanians are free , the slaves only gypsies " representatives of a wandering people , who has a home and is nowhere here in large numbers . They have their own language but I know and Romanian and are Christians. Griselini present in Banat in 1774 , speaks of Gypsies who speak Romanian , but between them, using a dialect that did not belong to " any language Hungarian , Serbian , Greek , Turkish , Armenian , no language other neighboring nations , European style and Asian " . F. de Pavie , Baron Forquevaux , since 1585 trying to look like gypsies could have had its origin in the Romanian , being here with stator housing around Iasi and features and likeness of gypsy and female Moldovans port as an argument in his hypothesis . He says : ' Only this is the difference between these beings wandering and Moldovan women : that they are white and blond and black acealea but artificially using the washing decoctions of weeds " .

It is one of the first descriptions of Gypsies made ​​by a foreign traveler and expressing the unique character and their mystery for Western travelers . B. Haquet shows him as a pitch-black hair , big black eyes , of sharp and often wild . They wanted to live freely and without constraints , with some " bad superstitious notions about religion , which does not really thinking ."
Foreign travelers remarked pathetic condition of most of the Gypsies, denouncing abuses boyars . Count d' Antraigues wrote at the end of the eighteenth century after it crossed the Romanian countries " boyars are their owners the absolute . Liking , sell them and kill them like cattle . Their children are born without distinction of sex slaves " . Jean Louis Parr , now in Moldova during the French Revolution , asks : " What can be said about the numerous herds ( because they can not be called otherwise) even more miserable beings who are called gypsies and who lost to humanity, are put on stage aceaeasi cattle burden and often treated worse than them by slinging barbarian whose odious so -called ownership are ? "

Gypsies are sold , kidnapped , separated from their families , beaten, and sometimes killed, although the law forbade it. A German writer currently Romaneeasca country in 1837 shows that these situations do not vanished with the modern era . He describes the struggle of a young gypsy who gave not sold to a gentleman who wanted to enroll 500 Gypsies, impressed , it seems, by her beauty . Landowner refused the offer of 50 ducats stranger touching face combat . Hermit of Gauting (this is the name that was signed German writer ) believed that between 40,000 Gypsies of Wallachia who are accustomed to daily whip would have lost the hands of a sadistic whim of the owners .
Showing the old slave laws Romanian Gypsy church accepts. Old traditions show that they were not considered people. Reform trends at the end of the eighteenth century did not change anything. The Church recognizes that there is no right to bond, but is justified by the fact that it was the old laws that were followed from age .

There were also cases in which Gypsies arrived from other parts offered servants of noblemen and monasteries . Mention the " Patrana , foreign gypsy over the Danube ," which , in 1659, was dedicated maid with her ​​baby Doljesti hermitage in Neamt County , forcing himself willingly to serve hermitage forever , along with other Gypsies , receiving in exchange food, clothing , cow and vitel61 . Presented a document which defines the particular - a state inhumane - and what he could a human being when he loves . Deed is a leavening of a marriage of a daughter of a Hungarian immigrant , a free man , a gypsy , a slave : " I ADEC Frentu Odor , Hungarian and together with my wife on horseback, certify this deed our honorable aa hand dumneaei Anica lady Roset Baneasa, percum to know that having dorire big to be baptized and go after a lady dumneaei Ion Bogos Rob Anica ( ... ) and I asked permission from us that after baptism and getting married and not have to have any hard feelings from us and have cerurt this deed . deed that I give this lady's maid to be derapta Anica so and how many children will face John Bogos my children and their children and all his servants dumneaei dumnealor be but the whole nation ... "
A popular sayings saying : "No Salce 's tree / No gypsy 's not human ! "

Foreign travelers about gypsies
Another said : " My son take a gypsy novel , Beware of God , Gypsy not regarded as a human novel . Somehow not be another law that necinseteste nation and dogs give bread to their children ." Foreign travelers illustrates the same fact. L. Toppeltinus show the world he avoid gypsies , not welcome , they show no respect , and W. Wilkinson wrote: " With all the gypsies make up a significant part of the community , they are viewed with the greatest contempt by other people like that , indeed , treat them a little better than the animals and insulting epithet hot or whatever the equivalent would be tolerated more easily than that of gypsy " .

M.Kogalniceanu remembered from his childhood in Iasi , about " human beings chained hand and foot with iron hoops around the forehead or neck collar metal . Whips bloody and other punishments such as starvation , hanging over the fire smoldering , solitary confinement and throwing, being naked in the snow or frozen water of any river, it is the treatment of ******* gypsy " 66 . The great political and culture was the first Romanian to conduct a study on the history of Gypsies , illustrating a fact that contradicted the general principles of the revolutionary and modernizing of his generation, one exception in Romanians history . Thanks to his efforts and his congeners , the Gypsies are emancipated .

Last edited by Rodan; April 22nd, 2014 at 02:25 PM.
Rodan is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > European History

Tags
european, folklore



Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Folklore about elves and horses ghostexorcist Art and Cultural History 9 May 28th, 2013 06:13 AM
I'm Looking For Primate Folklore ghostexorcist Art and Cultural History 21 January 22nd, 2013 11:41 AM
Which European person has given the greatest contribution in European advancement? jeroenrottgering European History 49 June 14th, 2012 02:24 AM
National Myths and Folklore dimmit General History 29 February 13th, 2012 07:55 PM
History or Folklore Baltis American History 3 February 2nd, 2012 09:43 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.