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Old May 31st, 2014, 03:35 AM   #21
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This map shows the planned partition of Germany under the Morgenthau Plan:

Click the image to open in full size.

It shows Germany losing a lot of territory in the West to the Netherlands and France, and a small amount to Belgium.

In addition, the industrial area of the present Nordrhein-Westfalen was to be turned into an "International Zone" from which the German population was to be expelled. It was to be under permanent Allied rule, and inhabited only by a temporary workforce.

The Kiel Canal area was also to be placed under permanent Allied rule and the German population expelled.

Note that German losses in the East were planned to be less than actually occurred. East Prussia was to be divided between Poland and the Soviet Union, as occurred in historical reality, but not all the territory east of the Oder-Neisse Line was to go to Poland; parts of Silesia and Pomerania would be left to the planned North German State.

The above map is based on that published by Morgenthau in his 1945 book "Germany Is Our Problem", in which he claimed that his plan had not been rejected by the Allied Governments, but in fact was being tacitly implemented under the directives issued by the Allied Control Commission.

Last edited by michael mills; May 31st, 2014 at 03:39 AM.
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Old May 31st, 2014, 07:32 AM   #22

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A part what Belisarius has reminded [and that had applied quite correctly after WW II, with some exceptions, but ...], I would underline that the war had won by two "main leaderships".

* The Anglo-Saxon one
* The Soviet one

France didn't win a territorial war against Germany. If Paris defeated the Nazis in 1941 after a long a bloody war of frontier, Europe would have been a bit different, but we know France literally disappeared in a while under the tremendous impact of the German armies.

Back to the two leaderships.

At Yalta it was well evident the difference of perspective and attitude. The Western powers wanted a free Europe [allied, but free], while Stalin wanted to spread the Soviet influence, supporting, where it was possible, the existence of socialist countries.

So, also because of the geopolitical need to have a strong and stable Western Germany to face the expansion of the Soviet sphere of influence, the Western powers didn't divided Germany further [they organized it, sure, changing also administrative regions in it, but they didn't divide it].
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Old October 23rd, 2015, 11:43 PM   #23

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimald View Post
Such noble principles as laid down in the Atlantic Charter (1941) were more a propaganda tool than a real political program. In reality, a "flexible" interpretation ensured that these principles would not be applied in the case of Germany.
Yes; correct! Likewise, the ethnic Italian population in the Istrian Peninsula was expelled after the end of World War II in order to allow the Istrian Peninsula to be annexed by Yugoslavia without Yugoslavia having any problems afterwards.

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Nevertheless, people in the West were not prepared to use murder and ethnic cleansing to impose their territorial aims, as it was done in the East. For example, France practically annexed the Saar, but did not expel the German-speaking population. Later, they even were prepared to let the inhabitants themselves decide over their fate in a referendum, with the predictable result that they voted for accession to the new West German state.
To clarify--the West's unwillingness to ethnically cleanse its own zones in Germany resulted in (West) Germany keeping its 1933 borders in the West after the end of World War II, correct?

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Originally Posted by Domen View Post
BTW, do we know what % of French Jews as of 1940 could speak French language fluently, and what % of French Jews were religious, especially Orthodox (while what % were Atheists, or converts to Christianity). Also what was the % of survivors among Jewish refugees in France, and what among native Jews of France?
I think that 91% of native French Jews survived the Holocaust while only 55% of French Jews of foreign origin survived the Holocaust.

This plan was never actually implemented, though.

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Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
There's a principle established in International Law that no state or states can profit territorially by waging "defensive" war. Basically this means that if country A attacks country B, and country B wins the war, country B can only legally regain any territory it lost as a result of A's attack; it cannot acquire any of country A's territory by "right of conquest".
This principle was only solidly established into international law after Germany's post-World War II borders were drawn, though.
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Old October 24th, 2015, 07:52 AM   #24

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Germany did pay reparations to the Allies post-WWII, nothing that harsh though. I guess people generally learn from prior errors. I think the major territorial changes reflected ethnic and linguistic lines, like how Poland has different borders post-1945.
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Old October 24th, 2015, 11:20 AM   #25

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Originally Posted by notgivenaway View Post
Germany did pay reparations to the Allies post-WWII, nothing that harsh though. I guess people generally learn from prior errors. I think the major territorial changes reflected ethnic and linguistic lines, like how Poland has different borders post-1945.
Actually, most of Poland's territorial gains after the end of World War II consisted of overwhelmingly German-majority areas:

Click the image to open in full size.

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