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Old August 17th, 2014, 05:05 AM   #1

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When the Moors conquered Spain....


Did Spaniards already speak Spanish?
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Old August 17th, 2014, 05:12 AM   #2
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Interesting question.
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Old August 17th, 2014, 05:28 AM   #3

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Spanish is a part of the Ibero-Romance group of languages, which evolved from several dialects of common Latin in Iberia after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the fifth century. It was first documented in central-northern Iberia in the ninth century and gradually spread with the expansion of the Kingdom of Castile into central and southern Iberia.[6] From its beginnings, Spanish vocabulary was influenced by its contact with Basque and by other related Ibero-Romance languages and later absorbed many Arabic words during the Muslim presence in the Iberian Peninsula.[7] It also adopted many words from non-Iberian languages, particularly the Romance languages Occitan, French, Italian and Sardinian and increasingly from English in modern times, as well as adding its own new words. Spanish was taken to the colonies of the Spanish Empire in the sixteenth century, most notably to the Americas as well as territories in Africa, Oceania and the Philippines.

From Wikipedia
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Old August 19th, 2014, 05:17 AM   #4

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Jose Javier Esparza deals with this in his muslim-era trilogy:

La Gran Aventura del Reino de Asturias (711-930-ish)
Moros y Cristianos (up to Las Navas 1212)
Santiago y Cierre Espana (1212 onward)

There is a chapter in the 2nd that deals with the evolution of the Romance languages. Following on from Funakison's info I recall that Castellano in it's present form started to form around the turn of the Milennium. But it's a complicated business.

But once again I must caution against this 'Moors conquered Spain' rubbish. Muslim presence in Spain was from 711 to the expulsions of 1609-10 (though some sneaked back!). Spanish Muslims by migration, invitation, employment, conquest or conversion included (not exclusively):

Early period -

Arabs
Berbers
Syrians
Yemenis
Egyptians
Many North African variants, often converted from Vandal/Bizantine/ Christian roots
Visigothic hierarchy converted to Islam
Hispano-Roman converts in the hierarchy and general populace


Later eras -

More berbers
Slavs
Any elements of the very varied armies of the Almoravids and Almohads

The number of coverts cannot be over-emphasised. For financial, social status and at times oppression reasosn it was far more sensible for the local populace to convert to Islam than retain Christianity as the Emirate and later Caliphate took hold.

The irony is that many people expelled over the latter ages would have been descended from Hispano-Romans, rooted there well over a milenium, replaced by relatively recent immigrants from non-Spanish places!

Last edited by johnincornwall; August 19th, 2014 at 05:27 AM.
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Old August 19th, 2014, 08:06 AM   #5
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Did the expelled "moors" from Christian Spain and Portugal mainly leave for Morocco or for other places as well? Is their descendant entrirely "absorbed" in the populations of the lands they came to?
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Old August 19th, 2014, 10:04 AM   #6

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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnincornwall View Post
Jose Javier Esparza deals with this in his muslim-era trilogy:

La Gran Aventura del Reino de Asturias (711-930-ish)
Moros y Cristianos (up to Las Navas 1212)
Santiago y Cierre Espana (1212 onward)

There is a chapter in the 2nd that deals with the evolution of the Romance languages. Following on from Funakison's info I recall that Castellano in it's present form started to form around the turn of the Milennium. But it's a complicated business.

But once again I must caution against this 'Moors conquered Spain' rubbish. Muslim presence in Spain was from 711 to the expulsions of 1609-10 (though some sneaked back!). Spanish Muslims by migration, invitation, employment, conquest or conversion included (not exclusively):

Early period -

Arabs
Berbers
Syrians
Yemenis
Egyptians
Many North African variants, often converted from Vandal/Bizantine/ Christian roots
Visigothic hierarchy converted to Islam
Hispano-Roman converts in the hierarchy and general populace


Later eras -

More berbers
Slavs
Any elements of the very varied armies of the Almoravids and Almohads

The number of coverts cannot be over-emphasised. For financial, social status and at times oppression reasosn it was far more sensible for the local populace to convert to Islam than retain Christianity as the Emirate and later Caliphate took hold.

The irony is that many people expelled over the latter ages would have been descended from Hispano-Romans, rooted there well over a milenium, replaced by relatively recent immigrants from non-Spanish places!
While everything you just said is more or less correct, it's hardly 'rubbish' to say the Moors conquered Spain. The early invasions were conducted mostly by Berbers and other freshly converted tribes surrounding the Maghreb. Berbers made up the bulk of 'foreigners' to the peninsula for most of the Islamic period. Hence, the Moorish tag stuck.
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Old August 20th, 2014, 05:08 AM   #7

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Ah hello again Jehosophats!

No point us arguing about the definition of Moors again as we both know the make-up of the people. I would just say the number of conversions is always under-estimated both in North Africa and in Spain.

Just as an example to the OP of the make up of populations:

In the great Berber revolt of 739-42 a contingent of Syrian troops were forced to cross the Straits into Spain - which had the double-effect of strenthening the governor's forces in Spain and rescuing themselves from the Berbers in Africa. Also strenthening the Islamic make-up of present-day Andalucia.

They soon fell out with Abd El Malik and refused to leave, eventually settling down in Spain, carving out their own 'feifdom' (east Andalucia) in an era where constant strife was the norm. 10,000 is mentioned by I have also seen 4,000, probably more realistic. Armies are talked of in hundreds of thousands at this time, but this is clearly impractical.

The point is some writers see these Syrians as 'arabs'. (See Wiki account below of the Great Berber Revolt). They may well be BUT if you consider that only a few deacdes before, Arabic was made compulsory in Damascus when the natives spoke Bizantine Greek - would these soldiers actually be largely of Bizantine Greek descent, as per much of the Eastern Mediterranean?

The racial mix and permutations at that time must have been incredible given the convulsions of the previous 300 or so years in the middle east, North Africa and Spain.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_Revolt"]Berber Revolt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
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Old August 20th, 2014, 05:16 AM   #8
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Yes the Greek contribution to the peoples of the mediterranean is always underestimated. As it is also to further north. So I'd say yes to your question.

Also the people in Arabia before the rise of Islam were considered to be pagan to a fair degree. I suspect that the word pagan was often translated from the more accurate 'hellene'.
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Old August 20th, 2014, 06:14 AM   #9

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantasus View Post
Did the expelled "moors" from Christian Spain and Portugal mainly leave for Morocco or for other places as well? Is their descendant entrirely "absorbed" in the populations of the lands they came to?
Very complicated business, again bearing in mind the huge time period, so I'll throw in a few points.

1) A large contingent of the muslim population from the arabales of Cordoba was expelled and their homes demolished after a demo against the Emir in the mid 9th century. Many ended up in North Africa but about 10,000 got to Crete, where they overthrew the Bizantines and founded an Emirate of some duration
2) For several centuries, with a few exceptions, there wasn't the inter-religious hated of the later 'Reconquista'. Lands changed hands and the people with it. Royal families inter-married etc. It was all about land. For example when Alfonso I El Batallador of Aragon took control of Zaragoza and it's lands after the collapse of the Almoravids, he had a whole country with a muslim population of workers and it wasn't seen as a big issue
3) Fernando III El Santo of Castilla had similar principles BUT at Sevilla he ordered the expulsion of the whole population due to the fierce resistance in the siege - off to North Africa. This was to set a template for Ferdinand el Catolico years later. One of his allies in the siege of Sevilla was the Emir of Granada, in the same way that El Cid and the Emir of Zaragoza fought against the Emir of Lerida and the Catalan Counts years earlier. Religion not an issue, but land.
4) In the War of Granada (1482-92) Ferdinand had a very simple template to the many stronghold fortresses of the Kingdom of Granada - surrender easily and you can stay and keep all your goods or move to Granada or North Africa. Resist and your goods will be seized and you and your familes sold as slaves - EG Malaga. There were variations and Ferdinand often generously provided ships for free movement to Africa, including after the fall of Granada itself
5) The draconian laws after 1492 forced conversions, and there were rebellions in 1500 (?) and the War of the Alpujarra in 1568-71. But this led to many being expelled from Granada as well as abroad. Cruelty on both sides was unspeakable
6) In 1609/10 the inexplicably monstruous order to expel anyone with remotely morisco ancestry from Spain - even those 'converted' for hundreds of years - it hadn't been thought necessary in earlier times to hide it. Many from places like Aragon and Valencia didn't speak a word of arabic yet were shipped over to north Africa to a variable fate. Their neighbours were against it, their landowners were against it, local nobles were all against it - it was the pure insistence of the 'Purity of Blood' Felipista policy - utter insanity and depriving the country of much of it's labour and economy.

This book in my collection details expulsions and the destinations and general fates

LA EXPULSION DE LOS MORISCOS - ANTONIO MOLINER, comprar el libro

Also there are other books in Spanish - I have one on muslims in the Kingdom of Valencia - and the material for much of these books comes from Spanish muslim sources and libraries in the North of Africa.

Destinations - all of north Africa and anywhere in the Ottoman sphere, but even france and Italy. But for example the (Constantinople)Sultan's influence in Tunis didn't venture much beyond the walls of the city and many were robbed and murdered despite being officially welcomed. However in Morocco the general welcome was much greater - Tetouan was assigned to the Moriscos and rebuilt - the Andalucian architecture is still there. It became a pirate haven, as did Sale - populated by Spanish people who knew Spain like the back of their hand and still had contacts there - more drain on Felipe's economy!

There are little anecdotes like that of a village in Tunisia where the people still speak a basic castellano. But overall a very, very complex picture.

Last edited by johnincornwall; August 20th, 2014 at 06:17 AM.
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Old August 20th, 2014, 03:00 PM   #10
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Spanish language comes from latin, not from arab.
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