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Old July 18th, 2016, 08:05 AM   #51
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Or a chav ??? Chavs recently voted for Brexit, AFAIK:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old July 18th, 2016, 10:26 AM   #52
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The notable early Indo-Europeanist*August Schleicher*(1861) proposed a simple solution: From Proto-Indo-European descended Proto-Balto-Slavic, out of which Proto-Baltic and Proto-Slavic emerged. The Latvian linguist*Jānis Endzelīns*thought, however, that any similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages resulted from intensive language contact, i.e. that they were genetically not more closely related and that there was no common Proto-Balto-Slavic language.*Antoine Meillet*(1905, 1908, 1922, 1925, 1934), the distinguished French Indo-Europeanist, in reaction to a second simplified theory of Schleicher's, propounded a view according to which all similarities of Baltic and Slavic occurred accidentally, by independent parallel development, and that there was no Proto-Balto-Slavic language. In turn, the Polish linguist Rozwadowski suggests that the similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages are a result of not only genetic relationship, but also of later language contact.Thomas Olander*corroborates the claim of genetic relationship in his research in the field of comparative Balto-Slavic*accentology.[7]
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Old July 18th, 2016, 10:44 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by God Emperor View Post
The notable early Indo-Europeanist*August Schleicher*(1861) proposed a simple solution: From Proto-Indo-European descended Proto-Balto-Slavic, out of which Proto-Baltic and Proto-Slavic emerged. The Latvian linguist*Jānis Endzelīns*thought, however, that any similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages resulted from intensive language contact, i.e. that they were genetically not more closely related and that there was no common Proto-Balto-Slavic language.*Antoine Meillet*(1905, 1908, 1922, 1925, 1934), the distinguished French Indo-Europeanist, in reaction to a second simplified theory of Schleicher's, propounded a view according to which all similarities of Baltic and Slavic occurred accidentally, by independent parallel development, and that there was no Proto-Balto-Slavic language. In turn, the Polish linguist Rozwadowski suggests that the similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages are a result of not only genetic relationship, but also of later language contact.Thomas Olander*corroborates the claim of genetic relationship in his research in the field of comparative Balto-Slavic*accentology.[7]
So among linguists there are two contrasting hypotheses:

1) Balts and Slavs share recent common biological ancestry (descend from one ancestral group)
2) Linguistic similarities are only due to geographical neighbourhood, not due to shared ancestry

It seems that it is impossible to resolve this issue on purely linguistic grounds.

So let's see what do genetic studies say - whether Slavs and Balts are closely related biologically, or not.

These studies indeed confirm that Balto-Slavs share recent common ancestry.

In fact Alina Kushniarevich in her 2015 study titled "Genetic Heritage of the Balto-Slavic Speaking Populations" found out that North Slavs (East and West Slavs) are more closely related to Balts, than they are to South Slavs (especially to South-East Slavs).

Here is what what the study says:

"(...) the observed lower IBD relatedness between the combined group of East-West Slavs and South Slavs than with north-east Europeans, including Baltic speakers (Fig 4A) (...)"

Where IBD stands for Identical By Descent segments of the genome; and north-east Europeans stand for Balts and Estonians.

Another study from 2015 - "The Role of Recent Admixture in Forming the Contemporary West Eurasian Genomic Landscape" by George Busby - also found out that Balts are very closely related to East and West Slavs, and quite closely to South Slavs.

Last edited by Metalpusher; July 18th, 2016 at 10:49 AM.
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Old July 18th, 2016, 10:47 AM   #54

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Nope, in fact there was a three-way split:

"Some linguists, however, have recently suggested that Balto-Slavic should be split into three equidistant nodes: Eastern Baltic, Western Baltic and Slavic.[4][5] A Proto-Balto-Slavic language is reconstructable by the comparative method, descending from Proto-Indo-European by means of well-defined sound laws, and out of which modern Slavic and Baltic languages descended. One particularly innovative dialect separated from the Balto-Slavic dialect continuum and became ancestral to the Proto-Slavic language, from which all Slavic languages descended.[6]"
So was there an imeadiate split into Western and Eastern Baltic? I asumed there was some sort of Proto-Baltic, that later on split further, similar to Proto-Slavic, which started to divert into separate Slavic languages quite late actually. I don't know, I haven't studied this yet, so I ask. My textbook isn't all that clear about this, or maybe it's just me, who can't find it right now ...


Edit: very interesting, considering the above two posts. I've never thought about that the similarities between Slavic and Baltic may be due to the wave theory and not simply the tree trunk theory.

Last edited by Shtajerc; July 18th, 2016 at 10:51 AM.
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Old July 18th, 2016, 10:51 AM   #55
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Quote:
So was there an imeadiate split into Western and Eastern Baltic? I asumed there was some sort of Proto-Baltic
Yes, recently linguists think that there was no Proto-Baltic, but an immediate split from Proto-Balto-Slavic into 3 branches. So Western and Eastern Baltic descend directly from Proto-Balto-Slavic - without any Proto-Baltic stage in between.
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Old July 18th, 2016, 10:54 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Metalpusher View Post
Yes, recently linguists think that there was no Proto-Baltic, but an immediate split from Proto-Balto-Slavic into 3 branches. So Western and Eastern Baltic descend directly from Proto-Balto-Slavic - without any Proto-Baltic stage in between.
This is linguistics, not geometry. Existence of Proto Balto Slavic language is one of popular theories, but it is not the only theory. Since it is unlikely that we find some kind of written source this will always remain a theory, one of many theories.
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Old July 18th, 2016, 10:58 AM   #57
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Also Alina Kushniarevich found out that e.g. Albanians are genetically very different than their Slavic neighbours.

On the other hand, no any strong differences were detected between Balts and their East/West Slavic neighbours.

Which is obviously because there was Balto-Slavic community, but there was no Albano-Slavic community.
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Old July 18th, 2016, 11:00 AM   #58
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This is linguistics, not geometry. Existence of Proto Balto Slavic language is one of popular theories, but it is not the only theory. Since it is unlikely that we find some kind of written source this will always remain a theory, one of many theories.
What are these other theories ???
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Old July 18th, 2016, 11:14 AM   #59
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Read God Emperor, post. If you really interested there are papers available online, he gave several names.
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Old July 18th, 2016, 11:15 AM   #60
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This shows how closely various Slavs are related to Lithuanians (from most to least closely):

Slavs most closely related to Lithuanians are Belarusians; the least closely - North Russians:

1) Belarusians - 0,0008
2) Poles - 0,0011
3) Ukrainians - 0,0020
4) Central Russians - 0,0021
5) South Russians - 0,0022
6) Czechs - 0,0026
7) Slovaks - 0,0030
8) Croatians - 0,0036
9) Slovenes - 0,0042
10) Bosnians - 0,0042
11) Serbians - 0,0052
12) Bulgarians - 0,0058
13) Macedonians - 0,0065
14) Montenegrins - 0,0077
15) Norh Russians - 0,0098

And here the same thing, but for Latvians instead of Lithuanians:

Slavic group most closely related to Latvians are Poles. The least closely - North Russians:

1) Poles - 0,0011
2) Central Russians - 0,0014
3) Belarusians - 0,0015
4) South Russians - 0,0018
5) Ukrainians - 0,0019
6) Slovaks - 0,0026
7) Czechs - 0,0029
8) Croatians - 0,0036
9) Slovenes - 0,0037
10) Bosnians - 0,0038
11) Serbians - 0,0054
12) Bulgarians - 0,0059
13) Macedonians - 0,0066
14) Montenegrins - 0,0073
15) North Russians - 0,0096
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