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Old June 13th, 2015, 12:56 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by authun View Post
True but whilst some people had surnames in say the 14th century and others did not, those that are recorded, like the famous flemish weaver Johan Kempe for example, have passed into the record. The list is therefore not an exclusive list but is a still record. It refers only to the name though and does not mean that the particular person has that heritage. The title is surnames with flemish origins, not people with flemish origins. The several studies that link surnames and ydna, starting with Brian Sykes' 2000 study suggest a 60% correlation, again, depending on surname.

It also depends on what the name is and the nature of the migration. For Kempe we have the record, 1377 in the reign of Edward III:

"if he will come with his wife and children, his dyers and fullers, his servants and apprentices, his goods and his chattels and exercise their mysteries in the kingdom, he will be given letters of protection and assistance with his passage".

Britain imported many flemish weavers starting with Henry Ist.

For others, for example the occupational surname Ambler, we know that this refers to the import of skills from France. The english rode palfrey horses, from which we get the name Palfreyman but Ambler is derived from the french occupation ambleur, one who walks the horses, ie breaking them in. This does not mean that everyone called Ambler now came from France, only that the name did.

Whilst the occupational names Fuller and Walker are english in origin, the occupational name Tissier is derived from french or flemish teazers, another imported skill. Again, I emphasise, its the origin of the name, not the individual. The fact that most serfs in the 13th century had no surname does not affect this. The fact that there was no standard spelling simply gave rise to name alternatives; Tizer, Tiser, Tisor, Tissier, Tisard, Tizard, Tizzard, Tixier and Teyssier.
"The title is surnames with Flemish origins , not people with Flemish origins"

Yes, sorry, that's what I meant. I meant the name, not the people. I should have made it clearer. Names had so many variants and spellings and they were also anglicised. So it makes it difficult now to tell the exact origin.
When you see the very early Parish registers (late 16thc) some of the names are more French looking. Is that more to do with Latin/the church . Or is there another reason?
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Old June 13th, 2015, 01:39 AM   #552

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Surnames were needed for the accountants as most were on the King's payroll and not feudal levy.

"The online muster roll database currently holds just under 94,962 service records. These are taken from muster rolls, housed in The National Archives (TNA), for the years 1369 - 1453."

The Soldier in Later Medieval England
30785 with the forename John, which became popular after the first crusade.

The surname Jones, that became popular in Wales, was derived from John, only 11 in the muster roll, but a huge amount of Johns either garrisoned in Wales or in the Northumberland army of Henry (Hotspur) Percy, who allied with Owain Glyndŵr during his revolt against Henry IV
Probably one of his Johns who put a bodkin in the face of the young prince Hal (Henry V) at Shrewsbury
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Old June 13th, 2015, 03:49 AM   #553

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The 11th/12th century settlment of flemings in England, scotland and wales is well attested and there are many publications about their names. The most common flemish names in Scotland are:

List of Scottish surnames with Flemish origins
  • Fleming (Flemyng, Flemeng and Flandrensis)
  • Baird
  • Balliol
  • Beaton
  • Brodie
  • Bruce
  • Cameron
  • Campbell
  • Comyn
  • Crawford
  • Douglas
  • Erskine
  • Graham
  • Hamilton
  • Hay
  • Innes
  • Lindsay
  • Murray
  • Oliphant
  • Seton
Just as an aside -The Flemish merchants in Berwick Upon Tweed at the time you mention established the village of Flemington (now just a farm) just to the north of the town. Fleming is an established surname in Berwick and they have a long history of office, influence and commerce in the town.

Last edited by Jim Casy; June 13th, 2015 at 03:58 AM.
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Old June 13th, 2015, 04:33 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by Sindane View Post
Yes, sorry, that's what I meant. I meant the name, not the people. I should have made it clearer. Names had so many variants and spellings and they were also anglicised. So it makes it difficult now to tell the exact origin.
When you see the very early Parish registers (late 16thc) some of the names are more French looking. Is that more to do with Latin/the church . Or is there another reason?
The problem you highlight is one etymologists frequently come up against. When for example does the prefix wal mean briton as in Walredden or when does it mean wall as in Walsend? One really needs to see the entire etymoglical argument. What we mostly see however are just the conclusions or maybe a very short summary. Lists for the name, with many spelling variants are compiled for many locations and comparisons made. Mostly these are taken from references in things like Manorial roles. Of course, there are many names which are simply not recorded and many names are still quite fluid in the 14th century. Someone might be a baker in Marsh and known as Baker there but, if he ever went to a nearby village, he may be known as Marsh, because that's where he came from. If he had some distinctive feature, he may even be known by a nickname or if there were two with the same name, distinguished from the other by appelation of his father's given name. John Gain the Baker from Marsh, son of John might be known as John Gain (crafty), John Baker, John Marsh or John Johnson.

Most of the etymological books that I have are placenames or dictionaries but for personal names one would need to use something like the [ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dictionary-Surnames-Patrick-Hanks/dp/0192115928/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1434195533&sr=8-1&keywords=a+dictionary+of+surnames"]A Dictionary of Surnames: Amazon.co.uk: Patrick Hanks, Flavia Hodges: 9780192115928: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519YVXXCW3L.@@AMEPARAM@@519YVXXCW3L[/ame]

Even then, it won't provide full details and only give a summary of how they came to their conclusion.

Regarding the french appearance, there are also the elements of fashion and convention so f starts to be written as ph. You find the same today with young men getting married to ambitious young women and adding something like 'de Vere' to the surname because Carol thought her new married name of Hunt might sound a bit dodgy and Carol de Vere Hunt sounds both safe and posh.

Last edited by authun; June 13th, 2015 at 04:40 AM.
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Old June 13th, 2015, 04:53 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by Jim Casy View Post
Just as an aside -The Flemish merchants in Berwick Upon Tweed at the time you mention established the village of Flemington (now just a farm) just to the north of the town. Fleming is an established surname in Berwick and they have a long history of office, influence and commerce in the town.
An interesting article here from St Andrew's University, mainly on the fleming surname and a [then] forth coming conference on the topic, but which mentions many other toponymics denoting nationality including:

English, Inglis, Scott, Irish, Welsh, Walsh and Wallis, with Gales (le Galeys, le Waleis, central and northern forms of Fr waleis ‘Welshman, Celt’). Sayce and Seys are from Welsh sais ‘Saxon, Englishman’.[4] Surnames from French and other Continental places include: French, Al(l)mand, Almond, Allamand and Alliment from OFr alemaund ‘Ger*man’, Tyas, Tyes (OFr tieis ‘German’), Den(n)es, Denness (OFr daneis) and Dence, Dench (OE denisc ‘Danish’) ‘the Dane’.

Scotland and the Flemish People
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Old June 13th, 2015, 06:56 AM   #556
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The presence of Flemish knights in Williams army and in the Norman invasion of Ireland is well documented.
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Old June 13th, 2015, 07:32 AM   #557
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The presence of Flemish knights in Williams army and in the Norman invasion of Ireland is well documented.

Yes, about 1/3rd of William's force at Hastings were flemings and bretons.

I'm not too sure what your point is though because none of them were granted land in Scotland. King Malcolm gave sanctuary to the anglo saxon nobles. The flemings who settled in Scotland at the time of Malcolm had nothing to do with the norman invasion.
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Old June 13th, 2015, 08:00 AM   #558
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Don't think so. Possibly Norman or Flemish, but definatley lowland Scot.
Lowland Scots are a mix of Anglo Saxons and Britons with some Irish in the far west. Strathclyde is part of lowland Scotland. This is where the 'Welsh' in this part of the world came from. Strathclyde was the last insular 'Welsh' kingdom outside Wales proper. I suppose it's possible that Wallace's forbears were Breton chancers who came over with the Normans (the Bretons also being 'Welsh'), but as Wallace can only be a name originallly given by English speakers, I rather doubt it. Much more likely that somewhere in his family tree there are Strathclyde Britons.

The last king of Strathclyde met his Waterloo in the eleventh century. After a bit of to-ing and fro-ing, Strathclyde (or 'Cumbria' as it was known by then) was split between the Scots (who got everything north of the Solway/Esk line) and the English (who got everything to the south of it).
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Old June 13th, 2015, 08:21 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by authun View Post
Yes, about 1/3rd of William's force at Hastings were flemings and bretons.

I'm not too sure what your point is though because none of them were granted land in Scotland. King Malcolm gave sanctuary to the anglo saxon nobles. The flemings who settled in Scotland at the time of Malcolm had nothing to do with the norman invasion.
I wasn't referring to Scotland, rather Wales and then Ireland. For Walsh. My entire and only point in this Walsh Wallace discussion is the word means foreigner and not Britons specifically, and was applied too Flemish knights in Wales, possibly by a Breton that spoke some Anglo. I don't really have any interest in Wallace, whatever he was, he was not a Gael.

Last edited by M9Powell; June 13th, 2015 at 08:33 AM.
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Old June 13th, 2015, 08:36 AM   #560
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Quote:
The 11th/12th century settlment of flemings in England, scotland and wales is well attested and there are many publications about their names. The most common flemish names in Scotland are:

List of Scottish surnames with Flemish origins

  • Fleming (Flemyng, Flemeng and Flandrensis)
  • Baird
  • Balliol
  • Beaton
  • Brodie
  • Bruce
  • Cameron
  • Campbell
  • Comyn
  • Crawford
  • Douglas
  • Erskine
  • Graham
  • Hamilton
  • Hay
  • Innes
  • Lindsay
  • Murray
  • Oliphant
  • Seton
Campbell, Baird, Cameron, and Douglas are categorically not Flemish.

Last edited by Domhnall Balloch; June 13th, 2015 at 08:39 AM.
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