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Old June 13th, 2015, 08:43 AM   #561
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Originally Posted by M9Powell View Post
I wasn't referring to Scotland, rather Wales and then Ireland. For Walsh. My entire and only point in this Walsh Wallace discussion is the word means foreigner and was applied too Flemish knights.
Why would the people in Wales or Ireland be using a germanic word? English wasn't spoken at that time and the celtic speakers have never used the walla affix because it is not a celtic word, it is germanic.

Irish for foreigner is eachtrannach or allmharach and welsh for foreigner is estron or tramorwr.
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Old June 13th, 2015, 08:51 AM   #562

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Originally Posted by authun View Post
Why would the people in Wales or Ireland be using a germanic word? English wasn't spoken at that time and the celtic speakers have never used the walla affix because it is not a celtic word, it is germanic.

Irish for foreigner is eachtrannach or allmharach and welsh for foreigner is estron or tramorwr.
Die Welschen

Les Welsches

Les Wallons

Les Gallois

Pays Gallo

all the same

Die Windische

Die Wenden
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Old June 13th, 2015, 09:04 AM   #563

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Originally Posted by Isleifson View Post
Die Welschen

Les Welsches

Les Wallons

Les Gallois

Pays Gallo

all the same

Die Windische

Die Wenden
Wenden & Windisch is something different (Slavic people between Elbe and Oder).
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Old June 13th, 2015, 09:13 AM   #564
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Originally Posted by Domhnall Balloch View Post
Campbell, Baird, Cameron, and Douglas are categorically not Flemish.
I haven't seen the etymological explanations for these but Cameron has a couple, one highland clan and the other a lowland name. The first recorded instance of the name Adam de Kamerun a witness in a charter in Cupar (Fife) in 1214.

The project at St Andrew's University, Scotland and the Flemish People

and the full list of names of flemish origin that I have seen extracted is:

Abernethy, Anstruther, Baird, Balliol, Bart, Beal, Beale, Beaton, Bell, Bennie, Binnie, Binning, Bishop, Boswell, Bremner, Brodie, Bruce, Cameron, Campbell, Clemmet, Clow, Comyn, Crawfurd, De War, Deurs, Dewar, Douglas, Dowie, Erskine, Flamang, Flamank, Flament, Flammang, Flanderensis, Flanders, Fleeming, Flement, Fleming, Flemish, Flemming, Flemyng, Flockhart, Flucker, Frame, Frizall, Graham, Hally, Hamilton, Hazeel, Hazel, Hazell, Henman, Holm, Houbron, Innes, Junker, Kessen, Kettle, le Bel, Leith, Leslie, Lindsay, Lochore, Montgomerie, Morran, Morrens, Mortimer, Murray, Mutch, Oliphant, Petrie, Plender, Plenderleith, Prain, Prayne, Pren and Prenn, Preynne, Pundler, Roche, Seton, Stein, Stewart, Stirling, Sturman, Sutherland, S****ie, Vermont, Waddell, Weddell, Woodall, Younger

and there is a list on the St Andrews site:

An Introduction to Flemish Names in Scotland | Scotland and the Flemish People

There are some very senior researchers on the project staff:

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/ishr/Flemish/staff.htm

Last edited by authun; June 13th, 2015 at 09:16 AM.
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Old June 13th, 2015, 09:13 AM   #565

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolus View Post
Wenden & Windisch is something different (Slavic people between Elbe and Oder).
Correct. But all non- Germanic speakers.
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Old June 13th, 2015, 09:18 AM   #566

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Originally Posted by authun View Post
I haven't seen the etymological explanations for these but Cameron has a couple, one highland clan and the other a lowland name. The first recorded instance of the name Adam de Kamerun a witness in a charter in Cupar (Fife) in 1214.

The project at St Andrew's University, Scotland and the Flemish People

and the full list of names of flemish origin that I have seen extracted is:

Abernethy, Anstruther, Baird, Balliol, Bart, Beal, Beale, Beaton, Bell, Bennie, Binnie, Binning, Bishop, Boswell, Bremner, Brodie, Bruce, Cameron, Campbell, Clemmet, Clow, Comyn, Crawfurd, De War, Deurs, Dewar, Douglas, Dowie, Erskine, Flamang, Flamank, Flament, Flammang, Flanderensis, Flanders, Fleeming, Flement, Fleming, Flemish, Flemming, Flemyng, Flockhart, Flucker, Frame, Frizall, Graham, Hally, Hamilton, Hazeel, Hazel, Hazell, Henman, Holm, Houbron, Innes, Junker, Kessen, Kettle, le Bel, Leith, Leslie, Lindsay, Lochore, Montgomerie, Morran, Morrens, Mortimer, Murray, Mutch, Oliphant, Petrie, Plender, Plenderleith, Prain, Prayne, Pren and Prenn, Preynne, Pundler, Roche, Seton, Stein, Stewart, Stirling, Sturman, Sutherland, S****ie, Vermont, Waddell, Weddell, Woodall, Younger

and there is a list on the St Andrews site:

An Introduction to Flemish Names in Scotland | Scotland and the Flemish People
A lot of this names are not Flemish but Walloon.

Vermont

Roche

Le Bel etc.
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Old June 13th, 2015, 09:26 AM   #567

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You will find this Walloon names in Sweden too.

As Sweden imported Walloon metal workers. At the beginning of the Swedish industrial revolution.

Wallons de Suède ? Wikipédia
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Old June 13th, 2015, 09:33 AM   #568
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I chased up the lowland Cameron name because the reference Adam de Kamerun sounds very much like a locational name as opposed to the more familiar Highland Clan name and found the following:

"Cameron, a parish in the E of Fife. It contains the hamlets of Denhead, Lathones, and Radernie, 3,6, and 6 miles SW of St Andrews, under which the first has a post office; and its church stands 4 SW of St Andrews station."
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Old June 13th, 2015, 09:38 AM   #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isleifson View Post
A lot of this names are not Flemish but Walloon.

Vermont

Roche

Le Bel etc.
Possibly :-)

There was a terrible fashion to make names sound more french, changing f to ph, *son to fitz* (fils), de to le etc.
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Old June 13th, 2015, 09:44 AM   #570
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There are some very senior researchers on the project staff
Their inclusion of Douglas makes me doubt them more than a little. It comes from a placename, and the placename is of Gaelic or Cumbric origin: dubh glas. It's known from well before any Flemings arrived.
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