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Old June 22nd, 2015, 12:48 AM   #591
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Ironically, a recent study has returned to the idea of the "Ice Age Refuge", despite all the evidence to the contrary:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...2015114s1.html

But they have been criticized for refreshing this idea of the Franco-Cantabrian Refuge.

This theory is just Western European equivalent of "indigenous Aryans" or of Pan-Turanism.

Last edited by Viriathus; June 22nd, 2015 at 01:00 AM.
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 01:12 AM   #592
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Iberia is an interesting case, since a lot of Non-Indo-European languages continued to be spoken there up to historical times:

Iberian - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_language
Tartessian - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language
Aquitanian - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquitanian_language
Turdetanian
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turdetani
Basque - https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Basque_language

Of those 5 Non-IE languages from Ancient Iberia, the only one surviving to our times is Basque, and it has also declined:

Click the image to open in full size.

Ancient distribution of these 5 Non-IE languages seems to correlate well with modern distribution of DF27 lineage in Iberia.

Iberian was spoken in the east, Tartessian & Turdetanian in the south, Aquitanian & Basque along the Pyrenees.

By contrast, central and western regions were inhabited by Celtic and Non-Celtic Indo-European speakers:

Non-Celtic IE:

Lusitanian - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusitanian_language
Sorothaptic - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorothaptic_language


Celtic IE:

Celtiberian - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtiberian_language
Gallaecian - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallaecian_language

But populations of these regions actually tend to have less of DF27 than populations in formerly Non-IE areas:

http://s8.postimg.org/3s0xn53ol/DF27.png

The study published in Nature (post above) shows that today the Basques have the highest percent of DF27:

http://s30.postimg.org/qac8xhszl/Iberia_R1b.png

One of men of the Bell Beaker culture from the recently published study by Allentoft, RISE560, was DF27:

RISE560 Augsburg Bell Beaker Germany Male R1b DF27

Question is whether he went out of Iberia, or whether his lineage had not yet entered Iberia at that time.

Another ancient man from Allentoft's study was U152 - he was also one of Bell Beaker peoples:

RISE563 Osterhofen-Altenmarkt Bell Beaker Germany Male R1b U152

There are disputes on the issue of the place of origin of Bell Beaker - Iberia is one of probable options:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#Origins

Quote:
There have been numerous proposals by archaeologists as to the origins of the Bell Beaker culture, and debates continued on for decades. Several regions of origin have been postulated, notably the Iberian peninsula, the Netherlands and Central Europe.[7] Similarly, scholars have postulated various mechanisms of spread, including migrations of populations ("folk migrations"), smaller warrior groups, individuals (craftsmen), or a diffusion of ideas and object exchange.[8]

Recent analyses have made significant inroads to understanding the Beaker phenomenon, mostly by analysing each of its components separately.[9][10] They have concluded that the Bell Beaker phenomenon was a synthesis of elements, representing “an idea and style uniting different regions with different cultural traditions and background.”[10]

Radiocarbon dating seems to support that the earliest "Maritime" Bell Beaker design style is encountered in Iberia, specifically in the vibrant copper-using communities of the Tagus estuary in Portugal around 2800-2700 BC and spread from there to many parts of western Europe.[2][11] An overview of all available sources from southern Germany concluded that Bell Beaker was a new and independent culture in that area, contemporary with the Corded Ware culture.[12][13]

Last edited by Viriathus; June 22nd, 2015 at 02:25 AM.
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 01:19 AM   #593
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There is a good reason why Indo-European language rather could not be spread by Neolithic farmers who colonized Europe - and this reason is that there are tons of historically attested Non-Indo-European languages spoken by European farmers and their descendants.

Many people - like Paul Heggerty (link to his blog below) - don't seem to notice this:

http://dlc.hypotheses.org/807

He claims that the movement of people from Yamnaya and Corded Ware does not explain the spread of IE languages into all of Europe, because Southern Europeans have not enough of steppe ancestry and they also speak IE languages. Thus Heggerty suggests that perhaps Indo-European languages had spread into - at least Southern - Europe earlier on, together with Neolithic farmers. Yet Mr Heggerty seems to forget, that in Southern Europe, even relatively recently – in times for which historical records exist – a lot of Non-Indo-European languages used to be spoken as well, not just IE languages. Almost all of them are now no longer spoken, but they got extinct in Antiquity or even later - not in prehistoric times.

Just to mention some examples of such Non-IE languages spoken in Southern Europe in historical times:

Eteocretan – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eteocretan_language
Tyrsenian – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrsenian_languages
Pelasgian – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#Language
Minoan – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_language
Etruscan – https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Etruscan_language
Eteocypriot – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eteocypriot_language
Camunic – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camunic_language
Nuragic – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Sardinian_language
North Picene – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Picene_language
Raetic – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetic_language
Lemnian – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnian_language
Sicanian – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicani#Language
Elymian – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elymian_language
Iberian – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_language
Tartessian – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language
Aquitanian – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquitanian_language
Turdetanian – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turdetani
Vasconic – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasconic_languages

Etc., etc.

And perhaps many other similar ones, including unnamed ones - which got extinct before people started recording history. Southern Europe had many Non-IE-speakers in ancient times, before expansions of Celtic, Greek, Latin and other languages in the Mediterranean.

Map showing the chronology of the spread of farmers and farming in Europe (in years before present):

"Demic and cultural diffusion propagated the Neolithic transition across different regions of Europe":

http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.o...6.figures-only

Click the image to open in full size.

In many areas colonized by Neolithic farmers very early on, Non-Indo-European languages continued to be spoken in historical times.

=====================================

Another thing is that the Neolithic transition had to a large extent a cultural character, not just demic one. For example maternal lineage H - long thought to be brought into to Europe by Neolithic farmers - now turns out to have been present in Europe since Paleolithic times (link):

http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/201...-analyses.html

Last edited by Viriathus; June 22nd, 2015 at 03:18 AM.
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Old December 6th, 2015, 01:35 PM   #594
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I would like to point out that what we know of our Celtic ancestors is what the Romans told us. This means that it was our enemies who considered us barbaric and ignorant who tell us about who we were. They say the difference between a dialectic and a language is a language has an army.

My family is from the South and always have been and I can tell you that what you Yankees read in textbooks isn't necessarily the truth. Of course it's always the winners who write the history books.
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Old December 6th, 2015, 01:48 PM   #595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WandaMorisette View Post
I would like to point out that what we know of our Celtic ancestors is what the Romans told us. This means that it was our enemies who considered us barbaric and ignorant who tell us about who we were. They say the difference between a dialectic and a language is a language has an army.

My family is from the South and always have been and I can tell you that what you Yankees read in textbooks isn't necessarily the truth. Of course it's always the winners who write the history books.


Are you saying you are from the "south" of Britain and then you moved to the USA?
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Old December 6th, 2015, 02:03 PM   #596

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WandaMorisette View Post
I would like to point out that what we know of our Celtic ancestors is what the Romans told us.
And what archaeology tells us, and what the unromanised Celts tell us (Scotland, Ireland), and what the early Christian writers tell us.
There are plenty of alternative sources if you care to seek them out.

Quote:
This means that it was our enemies who considered us barbaric and ignorant who tell us about who we were.
We? Us?
Are you telling us that you can trace an unbroken line of familial and cultural 'Celticness' all the way back to the first century?

Quote:
My family is from the South and always have been and I can tell you that what you Yankees read in textbooks isn't necessarily the truth.
I can assure you that the majority of members here are not Yankees, it being an international forum and all that.

Maybe expand your horizons a little and you will see further.
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Old December 6th, 2015, 06:00 PM   #597
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Quote:
I would like to point out that what we know of our Celtic ancestors is what the Romans told us
No, the Romans were around for the first quarter of Celtic history. The first third at a push. And 'Celtic' nations wrote monumental amounts about themselves.
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Old December 17th, 2015, 10:32 AM   #598
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If I could ask? I am interested about the Celts. I want to know what was the position of the woman within the Celtic society. Not only in Celts of Britain but either in general.

2- It would be interesting what was the situation of the woman either within the Picts of north Britain, which were an earlier ethnicity.
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Old December 17th, 2015, 01:44 PM   #599
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Originally Posted by piro ilir View Post
If I could ask? I am interested about the Celts. I want to know what was the position of the woman within the Celtic society. Not only in Celts of Britain but either in general.
Cartimandua of the Brigantes and Boudica of the Iceni commanded considerable support from their tribes.
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Old December 17th, 2015, 02:46 PM   #600

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Quote:
. I want to know what was the position of the woman within the Celtic society.
Check out the Brehon Laws.
Although Irish society under the Brehon Laws was male-dominated, women had greater freedom, independence and rights to property than in other European societies of the time. Men and women held their property separately. The marriage laws were very complex. For example, there were scores of ways of combining households and properties and then dividing the property and its increase when disputes arose.
Divorce was provided for on a number of grounds (e.g. impotence or homosexuality on the husband's part), after which property was divided according to what contribution each spouse had made to the household. A husband was legally permitted to hit his wife to "correct" her, but if the blow left a mark she was entitled to the equivalent of her bride-price in compensation and could, if she wished, divorce him. Property of a household could not be disposed of without the consent of both spouses.
Although these were early medieval Irish laws, they give a hint as to the status of women in Celtic society.
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