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Old May 3rd, 2015, 11:18 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Yashti96 View Post
Ad hominem. I see you refuse to look at things from a different angle, I wonder why.
I think that my view expressed earlier and reproduced below for your convenience allows for several possible explanations and is not as narrow as you interpret it to be:

"It is probably during this period that he either decided or was persuaded that the jews were to be the scapegoats."

We do not know how he formed his views though it is quite plausible that they were formed after WW1.
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Old May 3rd, 2015, 11:20 AM   #122
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Auschwitz... that's what happens when you type and try to watch TV and type at the same time, well, it does wiith me occasionally... I'm clearly thinking of witches for some reason. My mind flips over to the hearing the sounda whilsttyping ...
...to continue...
the extermination of six million jews isn't really the traditional version is it, it's what happened. Do you not see how traditional version is not appropriate here, it's not say, like the stories around Area 51 where the goverment say something like... we had a test plane crash, but then somebody pops up and says, well, that's the official or tranditional version, but in fact we can show it was alliens.

I'm trying not to be pedantic here... it's just that the refinement or progress in our understanding of history.... and a "traditional version" are very wide apart indeed... at least they are for most of us. And it's not like people don't know why the holocaust is such a sensitive and important subject.


The Allies actually anticipated alternative versions of those events... that's why they filmed the concentration camps and we know that many foundations and much else has been done since to prevent perverse interpretations of those events.


When I said that there isn't a traditional version it's because to suggest otherwise is somehow to suggest that we can wipe the slate clean and begin with an entirely new version of reality and what happened back then, and what would that non-traditiional version be?

The scholarship isn't disabled by let's say.... certain laws... either, or perhaps... some other societal pressures that make progress impossible.
That said, Christopher Hitchens appeared to think so, when it came to dealing with the case of the historian David Irviing. Hitchens felt that Irving's works should be published regardless of the content, even if the views held were repugnant to both him and many others, and Hitchens said he thought Irving was wrong when pressed incidentally....
This was largely a freedom of the press argument and other censorshop issues were raised throughout... and yes it related to various countries and different laws/judicial systems.
If I recall it was Austria that sat at the centre of most of the arguments.

Is this what you are getting at....

Last edited by Collingwood; May 3rd, 2015 at 11:58 AM.
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Old May 3rd, 2015, 11:37 AM   #123

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yashti96 View Post
Is this where either I answer honestly and get potentially banned (who knows?) or if I don't answer then I must agree with it?

I'm not obliged to answer your questions. Or is this going to come down to be because you're a moderator you are going to ban me if I don't answer?
Your refusal to answer speaks volumes.
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Old May 3rd, 2015, 11:57 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by authun View Post
I think that my view expressed earlier and reproduced below for your convenience allows for several possible explanations and is not as narrow as you interpret it to be:

"It is probably during this period that he either decided or was persuaded that the jews were to be the scapegoats."

We do not know how he formed his views though it is quite plausible that they were formed after WW1.
There is evidence he was anti-semitic before the war but it was not the same as after the war. You initially said he was not anti-semitic before the war, this simply is not true.

Can you please state the text in the source of Anton Joachimsthaler, Korrektur einer Biographie: Adolf Hitler, 1908-1920. which speaks about the alleged 19 votes Hitler got in the Army Council?

How come this does not come up even from a Google search and is not mentioned in any English major biography?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Collingwood View Post
.... to continue, the extermination of six million jews isn't really the traditional version is it, it's what happened. Do you not see how traditional version is not appropriate here, it's not say, like the stories around Area 51 where the goverment say something like... we had a test plane crash, but then somebody pops up and says, well, that's the official or tranditional version, but in fact we can show it was alliens.
It's the six million figure which is traditionally accepted. If anyone challenges this they are deemed an anti-semite Holocaust denier and thrown into jail (in some countries). Even some Jews themselves have attempted to question the Holocaust and have received death threats and the alike.

Quote:
I'm trying not to be pedantic here... it's just that that the refinement o progress of our understanding of history.... and "traditional versions" are very wide far apart indeed... at least as far as I understand it. And it's not like people don't know why the holocaust is such a sensitive and important subject.
The figure and the methods are what is traditionally accepted, anyone who questions this is labeled all sorts of things and can be thrown in jail.

Quote:
ANd consider this...
The allies anticipated alternative versions of those events, that's why they filmed the camps and much else has been done to prevent a perverse, or perverst interpretations of those events.
The footage we see of the camps does not prove the figure of six million. It does however show that Jews and others were put into concentration camps.

Quote:
When I said that there isn't a traditional version it's because to say that is the case is to suggest that there is some radically different alternative explanation.
There is laws against Holocaust revisionism, why? Anyone should be able to investigate any part of history, truth does not need laws to protect it.

Quote:
The scholarship isn't disabled by let's say.... certain laws... or other societal pressures that make progress impossible. That said, Christopher Hitchens appeared to think so, when it came to dealing with the case of the historian David Irviing. Hitchens felt that Irving's works should be published regaradless of the content, even if the views held were repugnant to both him and many others, and Hitchens said he thought Irving was wrong when pressed.... this was a freedom of the press argument and other censorshop issues were raised throughout... and yes it related to various countries and the different laws/judicial systems.
If I recall it was Austria that sat at the centre of most of the arguments.

Is this what you are getting at....
Do you really think Irving should have been jailed for simply stating his opinion on the matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
Your refusal to answer speaks volumes.
No, but I knew this would be your response. I just don't feel why I need to when if I answer in a way you are not happy with I'll find myself being banned.
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Old May 3rd, 2015, 12:08 PM   #125

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Originally Posted by Yashti96 View Post
No, but I knew this would be your response. I just don't feel why I need to when if I answer in a way you are not happy with I'll find myself being banned.
I merely wished to clarify your views. By refusing to answer, you've done that. Of course, if you think that's misrepresentative of your views, and in fact you do agree with the questions I posed, you're free to clear it up at any time.
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Old May 3rd, 2015, 12:11 PM   #126
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There is evidence he was anti-semitic before the war but it was not the same as after the war. You initially said he was not anti-semitic before the war, this simply is not true.
There is a considerable body of scholarly opinion that disagrees with you. I don't know why you cannot simply accept that they hold this view even if you disagree with it.

But, the point about a forum such as this is that the OP asked a question and expects to be better informed on the subject. He can be left to make up his own mind. I reproduce onne view below again. :

Hitler’s Beer Hall Politics: A Reassessment based on New Historical Scholarship;
Jeffrey Gaab

Abstract
As the eightieth anniversary of Adolf Hitler’s accession to power in Germany approaches in 2013, recent scholarship has revised Hitler’s description of his formative experiences. This new scholarship demonstrates that Hitler’s time in Munich was far more significant than his period in Vienna. The new secondary literature demonstrates conclusively that Munich, not Vienna, became the “school of his life.” It was in Munich, as a “beer hall agitator,” where Hitler learned the political skills he would later employ to outmaneuver Germany’s professional politicians and seize power in 1933. Ian Kershaw has described Hitler’s years in Munich as “the years of his political apprenticeship.” Hitler developed an “aggressive obstinacy” during his years in Munich that lead to his political success. The “aggressive obstinacy” developed after numerous experiences in Munich’s beer halls. This paper argues that the road to the Reich’s Chancellery in 1933 lead through Munich’s beer halls in the 1920s.

"According to Lukacs, Hitler‟s political development “crystallized” sometime around his thirty-first birthday, in April 1919. He argues that Hitler‟s political philosophy developed after the failed Munich Soviet Republic of that year. Germany‟s surrender in 1918 and Hitler‟s “witnessing of the ridiculous and sordid episode of the Munich Soviet republic, with its Jewish and lumpen intellectuals” crystallized Hitler‟s rabid anti-Semitism. Lukacs notes that there is “no evidence of anti-Semitic utterances (private or public) by Hitler before his thirty-first year.” (Lukacs 1997: 57-59). Ian Kershaw writes that “if Hitler‟s anti-Semitism was indeed formed in Vienna, why did it remain unnoticed by those around him?” (Kershaw 1998: 66). Kershaw has demonstrated that Hitler‟s years in Munich constitute “the years of his political apprenticeship.” (Kershaw 1998: 131). In this context, Hitler‟s beer hall activities take on a new significance. Munich and its famous beer halls proved decisive to Hitler‟s political ascent. Scholars have argued that Hitler‟s career could not have developed in any other city." (p.35)

You have stated that you disagree with this but to take up 8 pages in doing so and arguing with other contributors starts to look like obsession. The poor OP must wish he'd never asked the question in the first place. I assume it was a well ntentioned request for information and not one loaded with alternative intent.

Last edited by authun; May 3rd, 2015 at 12:18 PM.
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Old May 3rd, 2015, 12:26 PM   #127

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Going around in circles.
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