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Old April 4th, 2015, 03:10 PM   #31

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Originally Posted by michael mills View Post
Absolute nonsense.

The war effort always took precedence over the running of concentration camps.

In fact, the camps paid for themselves through the labour of the prisoners.
You might be correct here, Michael; however, even if so, I would like to point out that alienating potential ethnic Jewish supporters of Nazism such as Hans Rothfels due to the Nazis' rabid anti-Semitism isn't a pragmatic or a politically good move:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Rothfels
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Old April 6th, 2015, 08:26 AM   #32
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What are you referring to which was written in the 30's?
The first version of Kubizek reminiscences, written in the 30s-40s, during wartime.

Summary here:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Young-Hitl...owViewpoints=0

See also the commentaries for a more balanced view.
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Old April 6th, 2015, 09:55 AM   #33
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Hitler was an anti-semite in deed, but perhaps not in thought. I've always believed that he held no personal animosity towards them, but merely piggybacked on preexisting hatred for Jewish people once he realised how much it united people behind him.
It was political opportunism, not real hatred.
What's the difference between 'real hatred' and 'political opportunism' if both lead to gas chambers and crematoria? Is this a distinction without a difference?
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Old April 6th, 2015, 11:54 AM   #34

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What's the difference between 'real hatred' and 'political opportunism' if both lead to gas chambers and crematoria? Is this a distinction without a difference?
There is no meaningful difference whatsoever between these two things, in my honest opinion.
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Old April 6th, 2015, 12:57 PM   #35

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What's the difference between 'real hatred' and 'political opportunism' if both lead to gas chambers and crematoria? Is this a distinction without a difference?
One is borne from personal conviction and genuine belief - the other from a pragmatic desire to retain power and protect ones image.
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Old April 6th, 2015, 02:17 PM   #36
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One is borne from personal conviction and genuine belief - the other from a pragmatic desire to retain power and protect ones image.
For the Jews the outcome is precisely the same.
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Old April 6th, 2015, 02:18 PM   #37
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Oh fer crisakes…. Folks…. EVERYONE 'hated' the jews. Hitler's foray into genocide was no different than a dozen other pogroms perpetrated against Jews thru European history.

Ask why the Cossacks hated the Jews, why the French were eager to see them go… why Country Clubs in America were "restricted"…

Christians across europe have a long history of vilifying and maligning the Jews as being separate and as being the "killers" of Christ. All the various states and kingdoms of europe and Russia had laws limiting Jewish participation in their body politic… and then they maligned the Jews for being insular and not "fitting in" when they were never allowed to fully fit in.

In Italy they could not own land. In Spain, they were forced to convert, Leave, or be killed.

And tho most folks didn't spend all that much energy in 'hating' the jews… they sure as hell didn't want to be seated next to one of them in a restaurant, or let them in their club.


And In Hitler's early days… when Germany was struggling financially… and still had not built up a big army, Hitler needed a Scapegoat. Some INTERNAL enemy he could politically blame for Germany's woes… ( cause god-knows it couldn't possibly be the Germans who were responsible for their suffering )

Its a long held political tactic, that when you can't AFFORD to wage war against an external enemy- you need to find an internal one you can hold up as the bogeyman.

And if persecuting that group can allow you to seize a good deal of assets… then that's just so much better.


This is how you consolidate power… not by starting with some other country your people never see… but by demonizing some group within your own nation… some group you can allow people to target with impunity. You see it in the Conservative demonization of "liberals" and "Unions" as being forces "destroying our nation". You see it in the republican politician who vote for the most insane religious over-reach for fear of being branded " one of THEM" by their own supporters.

But in Hitlers day- social darwinism was a popular idea. The idea of the survival of the fittest fueled the notion of American Exceptionalism, of he idea of the great cultural combat between Socialism and Capitalism…. ( the cold war was nothing but an experiment in "let the fittest survive" )
In the USA and all across Europe, eugenics was a popular notion. Mentally ill people and those with downs were routinely sterilized.

In the US South, Blacks and the Yankee whites were demonized and lynchings were no different than the attacks seen in Germany on Jewish businesses.

Hitler's hatred of the Jews was purely opportunistic inflation of a sentiment that MOST Europeans and Americans shared. Hating on the jews got crowds worked up and cheering… and so that feedback ramped up Hitler's rhetoric over time.

But no one in the west declared war on Hitler because he was persecuting jews. Everyone saw it as perhaps a little over the top- a little too bald faced… but perfectly understandable since MOST folks harbored a sincere dislike and distrust of Jews.

Hotler was NOT an outlier. He did not "become" antisemitic.

He was born into a culture of antisemitism, and surrounded by anti-Semites.
And when he started seeking political notoriety… he tried all kinds of polemics… but the ones that got the best results were the ones that played on the hatreds his audience already all shared.
Not all European countries hated the Jews.
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Old April 6th, 2015, 02:37 PM   #38

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One is borne from personal conviction and genuine belief - the other from a pragmatic desire to retain power and protect ones image.
What evidence does anyone have that Hitlers actions against the Jews were based on political opportunism.

I'm not interested in anyones opinion, but anything that Hitler said or did.
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Old April 6th, 2015, 06:09 PM   #39
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In 1938, there was a conflict between Heydrich and the German Foreign Ministry over policy toward Jewish emigration.

Heydrich was pursuing a policy of cooperation with the World Zionist Organisation in regard to the migration of German Jews to Palestine. That was a purely symbiotic relationship; Heydrich wanted to get Jews out of Germany, the World Zionist Organisation wanted to get Jews into Palestine, so their political aims were complementary.

The German Foreign Ministry objected to the policy of cooperation with the Zionists and of aiding Jewish immigration into Palestine, since in its view that would lead to the creation of Jewish State which could then intervene on behalf of Jews all over the world and prevent countries like Germany from carrying out anti-Jewish actions.

The Foreign Ministry referred the matter to Hitler, and asked for a decision by him. Eventually Hitler decided in favour of a continuation of Heydrich's policy of cooperation with the Zionists, since in his view the imperative of getting Jews out of Germany was more important than any potential danger of the foundation of a Jewish State.

Thus, in this case, pragmatic considerations in regard to Jewish policy won out over ideological imperatives in Hitler's actions.
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Old April 6th, 2015, 10:09 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by michael mills View Post
In 1938, there was a conflict between Heydrich and the German Foreign Ministry over policy toward Jewish emigration.

Heydrich was pursuing a policy of cooperation with the World Zionist Organisation in regard to the migration of German Jews to Palestine. That was a purely symbiotic relationship; Heydrich wanted to get Jews out of Germany, the World Zionist Organisation wanted to get Jews into Palestine, so their political aims were complementary.

The German Foreign Ministry objected to the policy of cooperation with the Zionists and of aiding Jewish immigration into Palestine, since in its view that would lead to the creation of Jewish State which could then intervene on behalf of Jews all over the world and prevent countries like Germany from carrying out anti-Jewish actions.

The Foreign Ministry referred the matter to Hitler, and asked for a decision by him. Eventually Hitler decided in favour of a continuation of Heydrich's policy of cooperation with the Zionists, since in his view the imperative of getting Jews out of Germany was more important than any potential danger of the foundation of a Jewish State.

Thus, in this case, pragmatic considerations in regard to Jewish policy won out over ideological imperatives in Hitler's actions.
In this case what is pragmatic and what is not pragmatic from political point of view, could be a matter of discussion.
But if this story is true, it means that in 1938 Hitler had no any plans to exterminate the Jews.
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