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Old December 13th, 2015, 11:46 AM   #21
Dir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir1984 View Post
In the very inception of it, Soviet government was international in its nature and some members of it even planned a global revolution. You contradict yourself a lot in various threads you posted. Stop promoting your agenda based on your own fantasies. To listen to you, Russians are always planning on capturing the Earth. It is not like that. If we had been evil and did really plan it, users would have been posting in Russian in this forum.
What means "soviet government"? Is it a news for you that the total "government" in the soviet state was communist party? Under its full control and direction was everything in that country - formal government (Sovnarkom, later - Kabinet of Ministers), Verkhovny Soviet, army, police, court, local administration, trade unions, education - everything. And the communist party in the soviet land was Russian - or totally Russified. It's a news for you, too?

Global revolution? Even the banknotes of the RSFSR had slogans on the languages of the nations that never lived in soviet country

Click the image to open in full size.

Meanwhile I do not see the Bolsheviks as revolutionairs. Vladimir Voslensky (see also Milovan Djilas) wrote in his "Nomenclature" -

Click the image to open in full size.



Quote:
OCTOBER COUNTER-REVOLUTION

We said at the beginning of the book, that the October Revolution was not proletarian. We now add: it contained an element of continuing anti-feudal revolution.

However, this element - the transfer of land to the peasants - proved to be temporary; it was liquidated 15 years after Stalin's collectivization of agriculture. The October Revolution also causing inefficient as a third blow to the feudal structure, opened at the same time an era of diligent elimination of all capitalist, that were anti-feudal elements in Russia. It was therefore not objectively a continuation of the anti-feudal revolution.

And what?
*****
Let us speak the truth: the Leninist Revolution of 1917 - this is not the "Great October Socialist Revolution" but the October counter-revolution.

That it was a turning point in the history of Russian anti-feudal revolution. It was after it had negated all the achievements in the fight against entrenched feudal structures in Russia. How else, if not as a counter-revolution the October Revolution as it can be seen in 1917 replaced the Russian born democracy by dictatorship?

... Soviet historians repeat mournfully as the October 1917 was overthrown a kind of "government of landlords and capitalists."

But this is a lie, in fact, Leninists overthrew the revolutionary government of the two socialist parties: the Socialist-Revolutionaries (SRs) and social democrats (Mensheviks); no other party in the government is not included.

Favorites population of the country the Constituent Assembly in which the vast majority were representatives of the socialist parties, was dispersed by Leninists. It was created a secret political police of the Central Committee and the mode of state terror. It was eliminated freedom of the press.

Consenting to enter the first Leninists government the Left SRs in 4 months left him, and after three months defiantly rebelled in Moscow - as a hopeless cry of protest against the ensuing reaction

Last edited by Dir; December 13th, 2015 at 11:54 AM.
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Old December 13th, 2015, 01:06 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir1984 View Post
In the very inception of it, Soviet government was international in its nature and some members of it even planned a global revolution. You contradict yourself a lot in various threads you posted. Stop promoting your agenda based on your own fantasies. To listen to you, Russians are always planning on capturing the Earth. It is not like that. If we had been evil and did really plan it, users would have been posting in Russian in this forum.
If you would plan it and try to execute it your a$$es would be handed over to you.

Please check history and numbers of nations around you. You are not such a superpower and you never were.

Before Peter the Great you were having constant troubles with armies ten times smaller than yours. After Peter your history was a long set of complete disasters (you remind me of Chinese) and there was never a winner of a major war who looked as a walking cadaver (WWII that is).
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Old December 13th, 2015, 01:13 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Dir View Post

Meanwhile I do not see the Bolsheviks as revolutionairs. Vladimir Voslensky (see also Milovan Djilas) wrote in his "Nomenclature" -
Somebody smart has written that a revolution lasts for three days max and then someone takes over it.

We can observe a communist revolution as a last in long set of peasant revolts, as a false response to first industrial phase of capitalism and overall set on completely failed economic logic. Austrian liberal theorists of economy have written enough about faults in Marx's theories even before 20th century.

History will be forever describing all communist phase as a shameful part of human history (same place is for fascists).
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Old December 13th, 2015, 01:43 PM   #24
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History will be forever describing all communist phase as a shameful part of human history (same place is for fascists).
- I agree. And even Lenin himself called so called October Socialist Revolution much less pathetic - like the October armed coup
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Old December 13th, 2015, 06:23 PM   #25
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I actually had this book at my parents' home and read it in my teens, not the whole book as it is 600 pages thick but I still got the impression what this insinuates. What I got from this book is that Russians are not responsible for February Revolution being hijacked by commies, and extract given by you only proves it. The author of the book carrier anti-communist agenda, not anti-RUSSIAN. It is a good read, actually.
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Old December 13th, 2015, 06:53 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macon View Post
If you would plan it and try to execute it your a$$es would be handed over to you.

Please check history and numbers of nations around you. You are not such a superpower and you never were.

Before Peter the Great you were having constant troubles with armies ten times smaller than yours. After Peter your history was a long set of complete disasters (you remind me of Chinese) and there was never a winner of a major war who looked as a walking cadaver (WWII that is).
Before Mongol invasion princes of Rus had different successful campaigns, they repelled steppe nomads, made Bulgaria and Constantinople pay ransom. Rus before Mongol invasion was a great place indeed but barbarians plunged Rus into dark ages. Still, it wasn't occupation, only raids because Mongols built their own state in steppes and their dominance ceased to exist in the end and remnants of their tribes were incorporated in a slowly growing Russian state. I look at the nations around and what do I see? Poles stopped producing men since 17 century when they were kicked out of Russia, Ottomans had wars with Russian empire but the score is a hockey score in Russian favour to count the results of these wars. Only Germans and Finns are respected here. What is a great power? Russian Empire dictated its will to continental Europe after Napoleonic wars up till Crimean war and 'no cannon could fire in Europe without Russian permission', as a saying of those times says. The greatness is in ability to deflect attacks on your country, thus Finns are great and are respected. As for conquering the world, I shudder to think of that, if such a wild idea could come on the mind of Russian tsars. They never had such plans unlike Soviets who were not even Russians but a bunch of thugs who got power and it didn't wattes to them where to capture this power, in China or Germany. Still, Russian tsars were short-sighted. They had all the power and resources to save Dardanellas for future generations but they didn't do that.
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Old December 13th, 2015, 09:42 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir1984 View Post
I actually had this book at my parents' home and read it in my teens, not the whole book as it is 600 pages thick but I still got the impression what this insinuates. What I got from this book is that Russians are not responsible for February Revolution being hijacked by commies, and extract given by you only proves it. The author of the book carrier anti-communist agenda, not anti-RUSSIAN. It is a good read, actually.
I am sorry to say that the commies role in the February Revolution was next to zero. Vladimit Lenin got to knew about it from the morning newspapers he read over a cup of coffee in the Swiss Café. The day before that, he had no idea that the tzar was about to overthrow and it will be a revolution in Russia
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Old December 13th, 2015, 10:30 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir1984 View Post
Before Mongol invasion princes of Rus had different successful campaigns, they repelled steppe nomads, made Bulgaria and Constantinople pay ransom. Rus before Mongol invasion was a great place indeed but barbarians plunged Rus into dark ages. Still, it wasn't occupation, only raids because Mongols built their own state in steppes and their dominance ceased to exist in the end and remnants of their tribes were incorporated in a slowly growing Russian state. I look at the nations around and what do I see? Poles stopped producing men since 17 century when they were kicked out of Russia, Ottomans had wars with Russian empire but the score is a hockey score in Russian favour to count the results of these wars. Only Germans and Finns are respected here. What is a great power? Russian Empire dictated its will to continental Europe after Napoleonic wars up till Crimean war and 'no cannon could fire in Europe without Russian permission', as a saying of those times says. The greatness is in ability to deflect attacks on your country, thus Finns are great and are respected. As for conquering the world, I shudder to think of that, if such a wild idea could come on the mind of Russian tsars. They never had such plans unlike Soviets who were not even Russians but a bunch of thugs who got power and it didn't wattes to them where to capture this power, in China or Germany. Still, Russian tsars were short-sighted. They had all the power and resources to save Dardanellas for future generations but they didn't do that.
Russians have proved in history that they are stubborn and have guts and they got respect for that. Their leadership has been miserable in more cases than not. Masses have been suffering for vices of their autocrats a lot.

Poles were still doing well in 17th century on purely military level while their diplomacy was a disaster. Russians were lucky to have big space to settle in 19th century when populations were going up on today's African level because of industrial revolution and scientific progress.

Otherwise I'm quite a rusophile. My wife is a Russian and I enjoy watching russian movies and listening to russian rock music. And Dostoevsky is the greatest writer of all times.

Last edited by macon; December 13th, 2015 at 10:33 PM.
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Old December 13th, 2015, 11:22 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Vladimir1984 View Post
Still, it wasn't occupation, only raids because Mongols built their own state in steppes and their dominance ceased to exist in the end and remnants of their tribes were incorporated in a slowly growing Russian state
- Still, it was a real occupation for the Rus itself, till in the mid-14 century it was liberated by Lietuva and joned in it. As a result appeared the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus and Jemoit - with the active participation of Galitsko-Volyn and former Rus elite in the process and it a new state itself.

On the lands of the chronicle Zalesie - a former northeastern "colony" of Russia - the power was different. It liberated and separated from Rus itself by the middle of the 12 cenury and developed its own way for 5 centuries.

It was crushed by mongolians the same way as Rus, and got under power of the Golden Horde for 3 centuries. The Horde soon appointed there his controller - Moscow - and told him to collect the tribute for Horde and strictly suppress any anti-mongol performances. Moscow collected tribute several times larger than it Hordea ctually required, and the main part of it left for itself, referring to the fact that the big tribute goes to Horde "tzar" as it was called by Muscovites.

Thus all Moscow power came from the Horde (some Russian historians calls Moscow aurhorities otordynskoy - from Horde) , and candidates for the post of Prince of Muscovy always went to the Horde for labels. For permission Tartar "king" to take this post.

Horde was the metropolis of Muscovy, and in this role and perceived Muscovites for several centuries.

Moscow through this quickly grew rich. Along the way, it robbed the rich Tver and some other Russian places. It also fought Novgorod many times until crushed it in total.

And Moscow suppressed any protest in that early Russia lands, often asking for a Mongolian cavalry for that. Over time, Moscow is closely integrated into the Mongolian system and its rulers will live long in the Saray-Batu borrowing Horde administrative and other expertise. Horde was a big and strong sample of a state-building for Moscowites.

In turn, the Horde actively borrowed experience the Mongolian-Chinese powers of the time from the very start of Horde.

In fact Muscovy gradually evolve into a Western Ulus Orda and will actively participate in the Horde feuds and showdowns. In Saray also was a very important centre of Mocsow pravoslaviye - the Sarayskiy Diocese. When Horde fell it will be transferred to Moscow. Then it was renamed to Krutitskoe diocese, and it plays in the Russian church a very important role, too. Metropolitan Krutitsy occupies a permanent post of a Patriarchal Vicar

After crush the Horde by Tamerlane, Moscow started to fight for the Horde inheritance with other uluses and it will win.

Ivan the Terrible captured Kazan and former ulus there, the Astrakhan and the Nogai Horde will get a part of Muscovy without a fight. Then Muscovy conquers former Siberian ulus. And in the 18th century, when the Muscovy will become the Russian Empire - it will get the Crimean Khanate - former Horde ulus.

The vast northern lands of the former Mongol Empire Muscovy submit themselves without much resistance. The fact that the Moscow Tsar has now become the ruler of the former Horde lands, their residents will take for granted.

As to the former Rus for that times - I shall write later. I think this all is a separate issue and needs a special topic. Was Russia a direct heir of Rus - I have very serious doubts. In Russia was its own, a very special scenario.
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Old December 15th, 2015, 06:46 AM   #30
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A series of articles under the number "58" of the Criminal Code of 1922 as amended in 1926 and later editions establishes responsibility for "counter-revolutionary activities". In fact - for all real and false crimes against Bolshevik authorities and their regime.

The Criminal Code of other Soviet republics had similar article. In particular, the Criminal Code of the Ukrainian SSR, it corresponded to the 54th article.

From 1921 to 1953, for counterrevolutionary crimes were convicted 3,780,000. Man

"Article 58" operated until about 1958.

This paper had a long series of subarticles. Including 58 with add-on - ChSIR (a member of a family of traitor to the motherland). The article was for the members of the family of the so called "vrag naroda"

So, for the wife of a convicted under this article (58t = Trotskist - the worst kind of the 58 article) since the Great Purge in 1939 meant 5-8 years in the Gulag camps, and for children who became de facto orphans - sending into closed boarding or a special "children's houses" until their age of 15 years. After that age the OGPU (later - NKVD) decided what to do with them further.

Here is the party document for the wives and children of thar sort

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