Edward

Wehrmacht, Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe have been created for aggressive war with conquest of the Word as an ultimate objective. This war machine failed to achieve this objective. What was their strength and weakness?

Numa_is_the_boyo

The Luftwaffe had no real long range bomber which certainly turned out to be a major weakness, the Wehrmacht had Blitzkrieg (if you count that as being the Wehrmacht) as well as excellent training and the U boats were a major annoyance (for the British particularly) in both wars. Thats enough to start things off i think.

Chookie

I'll just mention some of the weaknesses:-

Wermacht: Equiped and organised for short, sharp campaigns. German tanks in 1940 are, frankly, crap, but they have one great advantage - they are fitted with radio. Logistically they utilised more horses than any other European army (about 70% of their supply system was horse-drawn).

Kriegsmarine: Not enough heavy units (and those they did have were used incompetently - by the OKW). not enough submarines (those they did have performed well, but production could not keep pace with losses) or destoyers.

Luftwaffe: No long-range heavy bombers was a serious problem or would have been had the Luftwaffe not been seen as, basically, flying artillery.

So both tactically and strategically, the Wermacht was most effective but logistically they were all in deep trouble.

Edward

[quote=Chookie;155575]I'll just mention some of the weaknesses:-

Wermacht: Equiped and organised for short, sharp campaigns. German tanks in 1940 are, frankly, crap, but they have one great advantage - they are fitted with radio. Logistically they utilised more horses than any other European army (about 70% of their supply system was horse-drawn).quote]
I agree. Typical army for blitzkrieg. Lack of in depth logistic.
They used British ideas (L. Hart, Fuller) but without British emphasis for logistic.
Germany use of horse during IIWW was unsurpassed. They use horse for logistic and for cavalry units. There has been big number of cavalry division in Wermacht, I think that they also used cavalry corps in sth. Europe. One SS cavalry division was organised also.
German high command was very arrogant often underrating the opposed forces.
German solders: to fanatical for their own good. The fanatical German resistance in 44 and 45 lead to unnecessary German civilian causalitie and great destruction of their cities.
German Tanks of 39/40/41 – very poor quality in comparison with opposing armies but they have been organised in armoured divisions, not dispersed between infantry units.

Edgewaters

No, they were not designed for "conquest of the world". The Kriegsmarine, for instance, certainly did not have the capability to support a beachhead outside of Europe. They were designed to fight a war in the European theater. Fortress Europe etc. The German plan was basically to seize Europe, bring down Russia, and dig in until the Western Allies decided to sue for peace. Some action was planned in the Middle East and North Africa, but only to secure Europe by seizing the Suez Canal and closing the back door.

Edward

No t really?

• Do you remember what German Solder sang during preparation of Sea Lion? I do not remember all wards but there was something like this: Today is England, tomorrow all world … They could not sing it without approval of Nazi Party
• What was the next step in long term German military planning after defeating British 8 Army and capture of Egypt? Stay there and wait? No, the preparation for pro German coup in Iran was well under way; Turks will join Germany if they will have Rommel division at their southern border. And there was only next small step to join Japanese in India. Than Germany will control politically, if not military, all world except American continent. Their time will come later
• Hitler declared war on USA in December 41 for fun only?

We must remember that IIWW start too early for Hitler. He did not expect Britain and France to declare war in September 1939. He planned to finish preparation for total war sometime in 1943. There was not necessary to support beachheads outside of Europe. It was enough to close the lines of communication by submarines. Kriegsmarine was very close to this in 1940/41/42/43.

Edgewaters

A rousing tune is hardly evidence of the capabilities which the forces were designed for. The Kriegsmarine wasn't even up to the task of Sea Lion, and everyone involved was quite relieved when it was called off.

The German subterfuges in the Middle East were designed to support and secure the seizing of the Suez. It wouldn't have been secure so long as British forces were able to mount a counteroffensive. You have to remember that in the early phase of the war, the vast bulk of British land forces were stationed in the Middle East, and it was difficult for Germany to maintain forces of any size in that theater - they had land borders to worry about.

Will they, now? Turkey had absolutely zero interest in becoming involved. And they wouldn't exactly be worried about anyone trying to come in through their southern border. Launching a campaign across the Taurus Mountains would be sheer stupidity.

Mmm, yes, "small step". Only the little problem of 2.5 million enemy troops there.

Er, no. Ever hear of Operation Drumroll? Declaring war on the US meant open season on US shipping that was delivering supplies to Britain. They could be struck not just in the declared zone around Britain, where it was difficult for the subs to operate, but anywhere. This gave the wolf packs lots of time to intercept American shipping around the poorly guarded coastline of the US and in the mid-Atlantic, in the areas too far from aerial cover.

The other side of it was that it was a rather hopeful gesture of solidarity with Japan. Things weren't going so well for the Germans in December of '41, the Russian counteroffensive had already begun. At the start of December the Germans had been fighting in the suburbs of Moscow, by the end of the first week a massive Soviet force had pushed them back an incredible 200 miles (that's amost 30 miles a day ... ie they were running at top speed, in winter). Where did the Soviets get all these forces? They were units that had been stationed in the Far East, mostly, pulled back to the European front. It's right at that point that Pearl Harbour happens. The Americans have no capability to intervene in Europe immediately (in fact, they basically spend the next few months taking it on the nose from Japan before they are able to mount a single offensive in any theater). Meanwhile they are supplying Britain. In the short term view, Hitler has nothing to lose by declaring war - he can freely attack American shipping and there's the slim chance that Japan might take the hint and reciprocate Hitler's solidarity with a declaration against Russia, which would greatly ease Germany's troubles there.

Of course he did. He just didn't expect them to actually do very much.

Sure, if all you want to do is secure Europe. But you're not taking over the world without being able to deploy forces outside the continent. They didn't have Galaxy air transports or anything, you know. Not only could they not support beachheads, they didn't have the shipping to support campaigns outside Europe at all. It's not like they could rely on railways or anything to support a campaign in central Africa or India.

The whole idea of German plans to conquer the planet comes from some outrageous British propaganda which was used to garner American support, including things like a famous forged map shown to Congress:

http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/200...south-america/

Edward

[quote=Edgewaters;156069]A rousing tune is hardly evidence of the capabilities which the forces were designed for.
Kriegsmarine wasn't even up to the task of Sea Lion, and everyone involved was quite relieved when it was called off.
In Nazi totalitarian system (and Stalin communist system) nothing happened without approval of the ruling caste of decision-makers. If German solders song about conquering whole word, he sang it with approval of Nazi Party.
The Nazi system was based on racial ideology. The very bases of this ideology were a supposed superiority of German Herrenvolk (Master race) over any other race. And destination of Master race was to rule the ward with other nation reduced to slave labourer.
This was an ideological ultimate objective of Hitler and his disciples. The secend European totalitarian system, communism, objective was to export workers paradise system to every country on the planet.
So you must agree that ideologically Hitler did want to rule the word.


The German subterfuges in the Middle East were designed to support and secure the seizing of the Suez. It wouldn't have been secure so long as British forces were able to mount a counteroffensive. You have to remember that in the early phase of the war, the vast bulk of British land forces were stationed in the Middle East, and it was difficult for Germany to maintain forces of any size in that theater - they had land borders to worry about.
the ultimate objective of Africa Corps was Suez Canal and beyond


Will they, now? Turkey had absolutely zero interest in becoming involved. And they wouldn't exactly be worried about anyone trying to come in through their southern border. Launching a campaign across the Taurus Mountains would be sheer stupidity.



British diplomatic effort to keep Turkey out of war is well known. Contrary to your statement Turkey has a lot of to gain, mentioning only territory lost in IWW (Iraq, Palestine) and territory lost to Russia during 19th and 20th Centaury. There will be no fighting across Taurus mounting, Turkey will join Axes if Rommel will reach their border from the south and German Army Group A will reach their northern border in Caucus Mountains.

Mmm, yes, "small step". Only the little problem of 2.5 million enemy troops there.

What 2.5 million of enemy troops……….? Where? British Indian army was fighting for survival in Burma, they will collapse without supply, and Chinese without delivery of war materiel will not be able to play any significant role. So it was enough to close the Sues canal and Northern Atlantic and whole South East Asia and Australia will fall


Er, no. Ever hear of Operation Drumroll? Declaring war on the US meant open season on US shipping that was delivering supplies to Britain. They could be struck not just in the declared zone around Britain, where it was difficult for the subs to operate, but anywhere. This gave the wolf packs lots of time to intercept American shipping around the poorly guarded coastline of the US and in the mid-Atlantic, in the areas too far from aerial cover.

The other side of it was that it was a rather hopeful gesture of solidarity with Japan. Things weren't going so well for the Germans in December of '41, the Russian counteroffensive had already begun. At the start of December the Germans had been fighting in the suburbs of Moscow, by the end of the first week a massive Soviet force had pushed them back an incredible 200 miles (that's amost 30 miles a day ... ie they were running at top speed, in winter). Where did the Soviets get all these forces? They were units that had been stationed in the Far East, mostly, pulled back to the European front. It's right at that point that Pearl Harbour happens. The Americans have no capability to intervene in Europe immediately (in fact, they basically spend the next few months taking it on the nose from Japan before they are able to mount a single offensive in any theater). Meanwhile they are supplying Britain. In the short term view, Hitler has nothing to lose by declaring war - he can freely attack American shipping and there's the slim chance that Japan might take the hint and reciprocate Hitler's solidarity with a declaration against Russia, which would greatly ease Germany's troubles there.

Yes, the shooting gallery created by illuminated USA cost greatly enhanced U-Boat ability in this area.
But declaring the war on somebody is usually dictated by bigger reason. Hitler probably believed that USA will not be able to withstand Japanese blows.

Of course he did. He just didn't expect them to actually do very much.

what a difference??

Sure, if all you want to do is secure Europe. But you're not taking over the world without being able to deploy forces outside the continent. They didn't have Galaxy air transports or anything, you know. Not only could they not support beachheads, they didn't have the shipping to support campaigns outside Europe at all. It's not like they could rely on railways or anything to support a campaign in central Africa or India.

They would not need to. If they cut the supply, there will be no fighting necessary

The whole idea of German plans to conquer the planet comes from some outrageous British propaganda which was used to garner American support, including things like a famous forged map shown to Congress:[/quote]

Yes, I agree that there is some propaganda involved. But I firmly believe that the Nazi ideology was utmost important for Hitler and Nazi Party. They created this ideology to follow it to the letter. The same apply to communist ideology. They wonted to rule the word.

Edgewaters

The Nazi state can write all the songs it likes, it doesn't mean their military was designed for whatever fanciful lyrics they might dream up to inspire the men. The Nazis aren't exactly famous for being honest in their propaganda, you know.

Yes, that is true. Stalinism was very much intended to be exported to every corner of the world, every population. Nazism was not. Nazism was a national ideology, not a global one. The nation it intended to create - GrossDeutschland - didn't cover the whole globe and there simply weren't enough Germans to populate all of Europe, let alone the planet. There was never any political statement of any sort from any Nazi, ever, in secret or otherwise, that they intended to do so. Their ambition was limited to Germany and environs. Even North Africa wasn't something they were terribly interested in ruling - although German forces were active there, in an attempt to secure the Suez, those territories were not administered by Germany but by Italy, as per agreements reached with the Fascists over the two nation's respective spheres of influence under the Tripartite Pact and earlier agreements.

No. Hitler's aims were simply to (1) build Greater Germany (GrossDeutschland) which encompassed the pre-WW1 German Empire and the German-speaking parts of the Austro-Hungarian Empire (2) settle Slavic territories in the East with Germans, because Germany did not have sufficient agricultural output to be self-sufficient (this is the lebensraum) and (3) disarm the other states of Europe and install puppet governments so that the new Germany would not be militarily threatened. He had utterly zero interest in the Congo, Afghanistan, Thailand, Australia, Mexico etc.

In December of 1941, the Japanese landed in Burma. British forces fell back to India, with little fighting taking place. They did not return until November 1943 ... by which point Germany's North African campaign had long ago collapsed. No more than a small fraction of the forces from India ever fought in Burma.

Himanil

Political Brass (Hitler), Poorly Organized Logistics System, Un-appropriate maintenance of the Armoured Forces as the War progressed, Lack of proper mechanization of forces, Hitler's blatant misreading of opponents, Lack of Construction capacity to keep up with the demands of war for all 3 (Army, Navy and Air Force).

As we can well see the German army was the best in all of WW-2 with no rival even anywhere close save Britain when talking about forces on a slightly large scale. Most of the problems faced by the Germans were politically inspired, had Hitler not been at the head of the war machine none of the many disasters that we have seen would have come to happen, then again many of the successes wouldn't have happened either.