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Old October 5th, 2015, 01:49 AM   #1
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Question Hoti tribe of albania/montenegro, illyrians ...


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In the second half of the 15th century (during the Ottoman conquest), Serbs of Bosnia were pushed southward by the Ottoman armies, eventually being pushed to Herzegovina by 1463.[citation needed] After the Ottoman conquest of Herzegovina in 1476, of Albania in 1478, and the surrender of Shkodër by the Venetians in 1479, according to legend, a man named Keq Preka and his four sons moved southward from the Herzegovinian highlands to escape the mass migration of Slavs.[citation needed] They and many of the other Albanian-speaking peoples in the Herzegovina area kept moving until they found an area where they found a population that spoke the same language as theirs (most likely a form of Gheg Albanian).[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoti_(tribe)

There are several other tribes of North-Albania, montenegro and kosovo who share the same history, only their migration happened earlier.
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Old October 5th, 2015, 07:57 AM   #2

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The Serbs of Bosnia moved to west (to medieval Croatia as well as to the Jajce region etc) and to the north (to Slavonia and Syrmia, in smaller numbers to Transdanubia).
Herzegovina was founded in 1448. Stephen Vukčić, the founder, had many problems with people escaping to Ragusa (Ragusa was swarmed by the refugees so they were transported mostly to southern Italy). They also escaped to Bosnia where they joined the aforementioned migration.
Moving to Zeta (I suppose you mean Zeta, Montenegro was a different thing back then) would make no sense as it was in political and social chaos- as a matter of fact, people from those areas were fleeing to Italy as well.
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Old October 5th, 2015, 09:43 AM   #3
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I mean this tribe is today widespread in north albania, montenegro and kosovo. they seem to of originated in herzegovina and from there moved south to todays montenegro and north albania i.e Zeta where they met people who spoke the same language. there seem to be several other tribes who seem to of accompanied them with the same story. zeta at that time was albanian-serbian mix some of their elites were half albanians half serbians, and some families origins have been discussed such as the balsic weather they were Albanian-Serb or Aromanian-Albanian etc. But I know some sources mention the Zeta elite as Albanians. there seem to be montenigrin tribes who share the same origin as Albanian tribes that migrated from herzegovina.. Atleast they share the same surnames. Such as Kuqi - Kucic, Kastrati - kastratovic , piperi tribe, Krasniqi etc there are more, even subtribes among hoti seem to exist among montenigrins and Albanians, there are subtribes among those all .. some of these tribes among albanians atleast share the same story... these tribes are widespread among albanian ghegs: North-Albania, montenegro and kosovo and plenty of sub tribes exist. the whole village of adem jashari is from the kuci tribe for example and i come from this tribe through my mothers side. it would be impossible for all these tribes to of originally been Serbian, this would make Ghegs majorly Slavic genetically and genetic tests show even the kosovars, the northern-most Albanians, are close to Greeks and Italians, it rather seems a lot of South Slavs such as montenigrins have non-slavic genes. or are Slavs mixed with indigenous balkanites (Albanians and Vlachs)

The Gheg Albanians and Montenigrins are also the only few Europeans and probably only Balkanites to use a clan system, the Tosks of South Albania abonded it around 14th century I think.

This wasn't the point of the thread though, the point is it seems these tribes were Illyrians from the Herzegovinian mountains who preserved their language and culture, and later migrated south to their present location where they met people who spoke the same language i.e other Albanians and there they also mingled with slavs (?)

I'm not sure if those other tribes I mentioned accompanied them, I might be wrong

Last edited by beast; October 5th, 2015 at 09:52 AM.
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Old October 5th, 2015, 11:30 AM   #4

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Any primary sources on any of those claims?
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Old October 5th, 2015, 12:28 PM   #5

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Does ''Hoti'' have any meaning in albanian or any language you guys would know ?
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Old October 5th, 2015, 01:09 PM   #6

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Does ''Hoti'' have any meaning in albanian or any language you guys would know ?
Legend says Hoti are derived from the name of their founder, Hoto (Otto?). Anyway, if @beast is a member of this large clan then by some weird way back through history we're related. I track my ancestry back to the Vasojevic tribe, who's founder is Vaso and according to the legend, him and Hoto were brothers.
Other three brothers are Pipo (Piperi), Ozro (Ozrinići) and Kraso (Krasnići/Krasniqi). This legend alone portrays the connection between Serbs and Albanians in that part of the Balkans.

But these are not the only such example. Similar relations involve Bjelopavlići, Kuči (alb. Kuchi), Kastrati (srb. Krstići?), Berisha (Beriše), Gašići (alb. Gashi), Kelmendi (srb. Klimenti), etc. who have both Slavic and Albanian ancestors as part o centuries of intermixing.
One also needs to know that In some of these cases their ethnicity was dictated by religion, e.g Orthodox clans ended up being Serbs whereas Muslim and Catholic ones ended up being Albanian. They are all still connected through similar folklore (clan system, certain superstitions,krsna slava, gusle instrument, etc).
Blood connection between these tribes is indisputable but it also needs to be respected that each of these tribes chose or was born into their national affiliation so any and all attempts to claim certain clans as being part of their ethnos when they themselves do not identify so is disrespectful.

Bottom line is, these clans are too complex to put them in one or the other basket and say they are pure Serbs or Albanians. It's baloney and everyone should acknowledge it. What makes me mad is that instead of these cases bringing us together, some people argue over what these clans are/were ethnically.
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Old October 5th, 2015, 01:13 PM   #7

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xilaw View Post
Legend says Hoti are derived from the name of their founder, Hoto (Otto?). Anyway, if @beast is a member of this large clan then by some weird way back through history we're related. I track my ancestry back to the Vasojevic tribe, who's founder is Vaso and according to the legend, him and Hoto were brothers.
Other three brothers are Pipo (Piperi), Ozro (Ozrinići) and Kraso (Krasnići/Krasniqi). This legend alone portrays the connection between Serbs and Albanians in that part of the Balkans.

But these are not the only such example. Similar relations involve Bjelopavlići, Kuči (alb. Kuchi), Kastrati (srb. Krstići?), Berisha (Beriše), Gašići (alb. Gashi), Kelmendi (srb. Klimenti), etc. who have both Slavic and Albanian ancestors as part o centuries of intermixing.
One also needs to know that In some of these cases their ethnicity was dictated by religion, e.g Orthodox clans ended up being Serbs whereas Muslim and Catholic ones ended up being Albanian. They are all still connected through similar folklore (clan system, certain superstitions,krsna slava, gusle instrument, etc).
Blood connection between these tribes is indisputable but it also needs to be respected that each of these tribes chose or was born into their national affiliation so any and all attempts to claim certain clans as being part of their ethnos when they themselves do not identify so is disrespectful.

Bottom line is, these clans are too complex to put them in one or the other basket and say they are pure Serbs or Albanians. It's baloney and everyone should acknowledge it. What makes me mad is that instead of these cases bringing us together, some people argue over what these clans are/were ethnically.
Ohhh ok, thank you.

Yeah, all europeans are very mixed up; Hard to understand how some people find this so hard to understand, after thousands of years of migration, conquering, allying and simply coexistence
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Old October 5th, 2015, 01:48 PM   #8

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Ohhh ok, thank you.

Yeah, all europeans are very mixed up; Hard to understand how some people find this so hard to understand, after thousands of years of migration, conquering, allying and simply coexistence
It is what it is hopefully things change in the future and people start taking an objective stance in regards to these things. Until then we can only hope to find people who are understanding and discuss with them about the past in a civil manner.
Anyway, you're welcome The story of the tribes in Montenegro and northern Albania are much more complex and there's a lot to be said about them, but I hope my little post did it justice and summarize the basics. @Badwolf may have more info on this if you're still interested.
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Old October 6th, 2015, 10:58 AM   #9

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There is a book by Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic about Montenegro, he talk's about people that live there, tribes etc. Its available on Serbian and probably on German (it was there originally published). I could translate some part's if you are interested. This is the part I could remember from top of my head and is relevant to the thread:

"People - They are all Montenegrin's, Slavs, of Serb family and Greek law(religion?). Only in Kuči there are few thousand catholic Albanians..."

That is what he got from his visit of Montenegro, about people that lived there. He talk's about what tribe lives where and so on, good read.

Last edited by BadWolf; October 6th, 2015 at 11:22 AM.
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