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Old December 18th, 2009, 09:35 AM   #1
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Did the holocaust really happen?


Now read to the end of this before you reply with the usual babble, e.g: "U ARE RACIST".

I am simply going to state facts in this thread; no opinions as they're irrelevant, no sides, no racism, no anti-semitism.

All I'm going to say is the facts.

Well first of all, it's not at all logical to totally deny the holocaust happened whatsoever, although what I am saying is that the facts point towards the holocaust having happened on a much smaller scale;
  • Many, many, many inmates at the concentration camps died of Typhus, Cholera and other types of diseases, these deaths were recorded, and no, not as deaths from the said diseases, but counted as deaths from what would later become known as the 'holocaust'. The estimates of how many deaths from such diseases there were in the holocaust ranges from the tens of thousands to the millions.
  • The Germans actually wanted to look after the inmates better, it's just that with all the bombing raids going on, they didn't have much money at all to spend on the inmates
  • ALL of the 'confirmed' accounts from 'survivors' of the holocaust were made in courts around the world, mostly West Germany and Israel. The ones hearing the accounts of the holocaust by the said survivors NEVER EVER asked for evidence of proof of these claims, they were believed blindly and written down in the history books which our children are being poisoned with today.
  • Himmler, Goering, Goeballs and other German leaders of the day are almost entirely the architects of the 'holocaust', to the extent that it did happen, Hitler was totally unaware of almost EVERYTHING that was plotted, had he known of such treatment, he would have almost certainly intervened, his own personal statements back up this fact; that he wouldn't wish such treatment even on his worst enemies (the jews)
  • If you state any of the above four facts in a western government related institution you are a "holocaust denier" and in some cases, just for speaking such words you are punished severely - "speech-crime", should this be the sort of thing to exist in "democratic", and "free" countries like the USA, UK, and Germany, NO, AND NO AGAIN!
This and many other bits of information are all extremely powerful evidence to suggest that the holocaust is mostly a fabrication.

And if you're just going to respond with trash like "U R TEH ANTI SEMITIST" then please, don't bother, this thread it open to intelligent discussion only.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 10:00 AM   #2

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Re: Did the holocaust really happen?


Quote:
Originally Posted by David Irving View Post
Now read to the end of this before you reply with the usual babble, e.g: "U ARE RACIST".

I am simply going to state facts in this thread; no opinions as they're irrelevant, no sides, no racism, no anti-semitism.

All I'm going to say is the facts.

Well first of all, it's not at all logical to totally deny the holocaust happened whatsoever, although what I am saying is that the facts point towards the holocaust having happened on a much smaller scale;
  • Many, many, many inmates at the concentration camps died of Typhus, Cholera and other types of diseases, these deaths were recorded, and no, not as deaths from the said diseases, but counted as deaths from what would later become known as the 'holocaust'. The estimates of how many deaths from such diseases there were in the holocaust ranges from the tens of thousands to the millions.
  • The Germans actually wanted to look after the inmates better, it's just that with all the bombing raids going on, they didn't have much money at all to spend on the inmates
  • ALL of the 'confirmed' accounts from 'survivors' of the holocaust were made in courts around the world, mostly West Germany and Israel. The ones hearing the accounts of the holocaust by the said survivors NEVER EVER asked for evidence of proof of these claims, they were believed blindly and written down in the history books which our children are being poisoned with today.
  • Himmler, Goering, Goeballs and other German leaders of the day are almost entirely the architects of the 'holocaust', to the extent that it did happen, Hitler was totally unaware of almost EVERYTHING that was plotted, had he known of such treatment, he would have almost certainly intervened, his own personal statements back up this fact; that he wouldn't wish such treatment even on his worst enemies (the jews)
  • If you state any of the above four facts in a western government related institution you are a "holocaust denier" and in some cases, just for speaking such words you are punished severely - "speech-crime", should this be the sort of thing to exist in "democratic", and "free" countries like the USA, UK, and Germany, NO, AND NO AGAIN!
This and many other bits of information are all extremely powerful evidence to suggest that the holocaust is mostly a fabrication.

And if you're just going to respond with trash like "U R TEH ANTI SEMITIST" then please, don't bother, this thread it open to intelligent discussion only.
Before I argue against all your points mentioned above, you say these are the "supposed" facts.What documentation do you have to back any of this up?
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Old December 18th, 2009, 10:08 AM   #3
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Angry Re: Did the holocaust really happen?


It does not matter why and how people died in these extermination camps to call these deaths an holocaust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Irving View Post
ALL of the 'confirmed' accounts from 'survivors' of the holocaust were made in courts around the world, mostly West Germany and Israel. The ones hearing the accounts of the holocaust by the said survivors NEVER EVER asked for evidence of proof of these claims, they were believed blindly and written down in the history books which our children are being poisoned with today.
Had you visited one of these camps you would not have posted such a silly comment.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 10:41 AM   #4

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Re: Did the holocaust really happen?


If the words of the Nazis themselves are any indication, then it really happened:

"I will leap into my grave laughing because the feeling that I have five million human beings on my conscience is for me a source of extraordinary satisfaction."

Adolf Eichmann

"Still another improvement we made over Treblinka was that at Treblinka the victims almost always knew that they were to be exterminated and at Auschwitz we endeavored to fool the victims into thinking that they were to go through a delousing process. Of course, frequently they realized our true intentions and we sometimes had riots and difficulties due to that fact. Very frequently women would hide their children under the clothes but of course when we found them we would send the children in to be exterminated."

Rudolf Höss
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Old December 18th, 2009, 10:57 AM   #5
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Re: Did the holocaust really happen?


Quote:
Originally Posted by David Irving View Post
Now read to the end of this before you reply with the usual babble, e.g: "U ARE RACIST".

I am simply going to state facts in this thread; no opinions as they're irrelevant, no sides, no racism, no anti-semitism.

All I'm going to say is the facts.

Well first of all, it's not at all logical to totally deny the holocaust happened whatsoever, although what I am saying is that the facts point towards the holocaust having happened on a much smaller scale;
  • Many, many, many inmates at the concentration camps died of Typhus, Cholera and other types of diseases, these deaths were recorded, and no, not as deaths from the said diseases, but counted as deaths from what would later become known as the 'holocaust'. The estimates of how many deaths from such diseases there were in the holocaust ranges from the tens of thousands to the millions.
Undoubtedly disease and starvation would have taken a devastating toll - However, not placing people in concentration camps in the first place would have avoided the issue completely. By your own admission, at least tens of thousands of people died through a deliberate policy of incarcerating them with inadequate sanitation, shelter, food and medical care. Do you genuinely consider this 'less' of a holocaust than shooting, gas vans and gas chambers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Irving View Post
  • The Germans actually wanted to look after the inmates better, it's just that with all the bombing raids going on, they didn't have much money at all to spend on the inmates
The Germans could have saved money by not building the Atlantic Wall or undertaking other military projects or simply by not incarcerating these people at all - just issuing them with ration cards and have them earn a living like all other civilians in the occupied territory.

However, besides this obvious point, if you want to state that 'The Germans actually wanted to look after the inmates better' you need to be able to back that up with evidence. I would consider acceptable evidence to be authenticated letters from multiple Concentration Camp Commandants to their higher authorities making repeated requests for better conditions for their prisoners and responses from those higher authorities denying the requests on the basis of affordability and the lack of resources caused by Allied bombing. If, as you say, the Nazis kept meticulous records of death by disease in the camps then such letters should exist in Germany's archives, shouldn't they? Indeed, you would expect such letters to have been lead in evidence for the defence at the Nuremberg Trials and other post-war tribunals. So they shouldn't be hard to track down, if they exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Irving View Post
  • ALL of the 'confirmed' accounts from 'survivors' of the holocaust were made in courts around the world, mostly West Germany and Israel. The ones hearing the accounts of the holocaust by the said survivors NEVER EVER asked for evidence of proof of these claims, they were believed blindly and written down in the history books which our children are being poisoned with today.
I think Eisenhower's comments and efforts in recording the Holocaust neatly rebut this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Irving View Post
  • Himmler, Goering, Goeballs and other German leaders of the day are almost entirely the architects of the 'holocaust', to the extent that it did happen, Hitler was totally unaware of almost EVERYTHING that was plotted, had he known of such treatment, he would have almost certainly intervened, his own personal statements back up this fact; that he wouldn't wish such treatment even on his worst enemies (the jews)
Himmler, Goering, Goeballs (sic) and other German leaders of the day were appointed solely by Hitler, whether he knew the precise details or not, he appointed these people, he told them to deal with the 'Jewish Question' and may not have asked too many questions about it. However, Hitler was obsessed with detail, as Stephen Ambrose notes in 'D-Day', Hitler spotted a change of two anti-aircraft guns in the Channel Islands in his weekly review of the Atlantic Wall defences. If, as you say, the deaths of thousands of people in the camps was due to lack of resource rather than lack of care, it stretches credulity to suggest that Hitler wouldn't be very precisely aware of the material cost involved in 'looking after' the inmates.


Quote:
Originally Posted by David Irving View Post
  • If you state any of the above four facts in a western government related institution you are a "holocaust denier" and in some cases, just for speaking such words you are punished severely - "speech-crime", should this be the sort of thing to exist in "democratic", and "free" countries like the USA, UK, and Germany, NO, AND NO AGAIN!
The question of the present-day legality or otherwise of being a 'holocaust denier' is neither here nor there when it comes to determining whether or not the holocaust happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Irving View Post

This and many other bits of information are all extremely powerful evidence to suggest that the holocaust is mostly a fabrication.
You can't prove a negative - what you need to do is look at the all evidence for the holocaust and demonstrate where it was inaccurate or wrong. Thus far, you have failed to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Irving View Post

And if you're just going to respond with trash like "U R TEH ANTI SEMITIST" then please, don't bother, this thread it open to intelligent discussion only.
I'm sorely tempted because I never yet read someone deny the Holocaust who wasn't anti-semitic. You may, of course, be the exception.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 11:09 AM   #6

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Re: Did the holocaust really happen?


Hitler was unware? What a load of crap!

Himmler knew fully about it too. But I suppose we should expect this kind of stuff from Himmler, the former chicken farmer. He went heavily into the Occult in his creep-fest triangle castle that he bought for himself and turned into an occultic shrine to Satanic pagan rituals. And yes, because of this dark and twisted mentality, both he and Hitler knew fully about the holocost, as they were the architecs of it.

What kind of person would come out today in these modern times, in the face of overwhelming evidence, and say stuff like "The holocost never happened" or even "Hitler knew nothing of it".

But there is a movement today to say that Russian communism wasnt that cruel either, or the gulags were not that bad, etc etc. Its kinda along the same lines as this stuff.

Ive got better things to do than be an appologist for tyrants.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 11:15 AM   #7

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Re: Did the holocaust really happen?


Quote:
Originally Posted by David Irving View Post
Now read to the end of this before you reply with the usual babble, e.g: "U ARE RACIST".

I am simply going to state facts in this thread; no opinions as they're irrelevant, no sides, no racism, no anti-semitism.

All I'm going to say is the facts.

Well first of all, it's not at all logical to totally deny the holocaust happened whatsoever, although what I am saying is that the facts point towards the holocaust having happened on a much smaller scale;
  • Many, many, many inmates at the concentration camps died of Typhus, Cholera and other types of diseases, these deaths were recorded, and no, not as deaths from the said diseases, but counted as deaths from what would later become known as the 'holocaust'. The estimates of how many deaths from such diseases there were in the holocaust ranges from the tens of thousands to the millions.
  • The Germans actually wanted to look after the inmates better, it's just that with all the bombing raids going on, they didn't have much money at all to spend on the inmates
  • ALL of the 'confirmed' accounts from 'survivors' of the holocaust were made in courts around the world, mostly West Germany and Israel. The ones hearing the accounts of the holocaust by the said survivors NEVER EVER asked for evidence of proof of these claims, they were believed blindly and written down in the history books which our children are being poisoned with today.
  • Himmler, Goering, Goeballs and other German leaders of the day are almost entirely the architects of the 'holocaust', to the extent that it did happen, Hitler was totally unaware of almost EVERYTHING that was plotted, had he known of such treatment, he would have almost certainly intervened, his own personal statements back up this fact; that he wouldn't wish such treatment even on his worst enemies (the jews)
  • If you state any of the above four facts in a western government related institution you are a "holocaust denier" and in some cases, just for speaking such words you are punished severely - "speech-crime", should this be the sort of thing to exist in "democratic", and "free" countries like the USA, UK, and Germany, NO, AND NO AGAIN!
This and many other bits of information are all extremely powerful evidence to suggest that the holocaust is mostly a fabrication.

And if you're just going to respond with trash like "U R TEH ANTI SEMITIST" then please, don't bother, this thread it open to intelligent discussion only.
In a italian forum I am still trying to convince one "negazionist" or "revisionist" , as he wants to be called, but usellessly.
About the last point of your list I could be agreed, not because I believe in the negazionist theory, but because I think a real democracy should allow the free thought.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 11:20 AM   #8

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Re: Did the holocaust really happen?


To paraphrase Eisenhower:
"Get all the recordings, photos, documents you can get because one day, some SOB is gonna come up and say none of this ever happened."

Eisenhower didn't say that (abridged) statement because he wanted to appear tough.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 11:27 AM   #9

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Re: Did the holocaust really happen?


As Hickdive said....

Yes disease claimed many lives in the camps, but these disease were a result of the camps that were a part of the holocaust. Putting people in camps and them dying from disease as a result is the same as executing them in my opinion. Disease related deaths in camps SHOULD be considered casulaties of the holocaust.

And on about how the Germans wanted to 'treat them better' in the camps, at the end of the day, the people WERE STILL PUT IN CAMPS that resulted in their death.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 11:30 AM   #10
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Re: Did the holocaust really happen?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanyankee View Post
Before I argue against all your points mentioned above, you say these are the "supposed" facts.What documentation do you have to back any of this up?
Books, webpages, articles, magazines, I don't recall it all off by heart but look through a few David Irving books and you'll be sure to see what I'm talking about.

Quote:
It does not matter why and how people died in these extermination camps to call these deaths an holocaust.
It certainly does if the deaths were no fault of the supposed "perpetrators", this is like me saying that you're responsible for a murder being commited somewhere about 1,000 miles away from you right now by someone you've never even known: it's ridiculous.

Quote:
Had you visited one of these camps you would not have posted such a silly comment.
Don't assume things you don't know: I visited the camps from NDH (a nazi puppet state in WW2) and instantly realized that something funny was going on.

Quote:
I will leap into my grave laughing because the feeling that I have five million human beings on my conscience is for me a source of extraordinary satisfaction.
This is a quote ive heard before

After Eichmann's kidnapping, at his trial in Israel, Eichmann also signed a confession to the effect of killing five million. The problem with this is that no mainstream historian any longer claims such a high figure for Auschwitz or for Eichmann. Instead the figure is generally put at around ONE million murders at Auschwitz. The 3 or 4 million difference is at least half of the alleged six-million total so this is not an insignificant matter. Were Wisliceny and Eichmann tortured to obtain such confessions? Why is there not a single uncontested document to support such extravagant claims?
  • The Nuremberg quote is in any event suspect because Wisliceny was fighting for his life. He was later extradited to Czechoslovakia and hanged.
  • His statement was written in ENGLISH, not his native German.
  • British historian, David Irving, pointed out a major error in his statement that casts further doubt on whether Wisliceny actually wrote the confession himself. See: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Wisli...vit291145.html
Quote:
"Still another improvement we made over Treblinka was that at Treblinka the victims almost always knew that they were to be exterminated and at Auschwitz we endeavored to fool the victims into thinking that they were to go through a delousing process. Of course, frequently they realized our true intentions and we sometimes had riots and difficulties due to that fact. Very frequently women would hide their children under the clothes but of course when we found them we would send the children in to be exterminated."
This is also a quote which was made under force by the British and the Jews at his trial. And under conditions of torture, how does this make his "confessions" genuine in any respect whatsoever?

Quote:
Undoubtedly disease and starvation would have taken a devastating toll - However, not placing people in concentration camps in the first place would have avoided the issue completely. By your own admission, at least tens of thousands of people died through a deliberate policy of incarcerating them with inadequate sanitation, shelter, food and medical care. Do you genuinely consider this 'less' of a holocaust than shooting, gas vans and gas chambers?
Yes, I do consider 10,000 deaths 'less' of a holocaust than 6,000,000 deaths, so does every other thinking, rational person, you're not one of them obviously.

Quote:
or undertaking other military projects
Then Hitler would have lost the war, been captured and executed, I really think he's going to do that... NOT.

Quote:
and the lack of resources caused by Allied bombing.
EXACTLY MY F*CKING POINT!

It was impossible to look after the detained in the concentration camps since the Germans didn't have the money, there's no use in whining about it, it was an impossibility, 100%.

Quote:
I think Eisenhower's comments and efforts in recording the Holocaust neatly rebut this.
AND SURPRISE SURPRISE, EISENHOWER IS JEWISH. Do you really think he's not going to refute such claims when he's JEWISH HIMSELF. JESUS CHRIST, that's ludicrous!

Quote:
Himmler, Goering, Goeballs (sic) and other German leaders of the day were appointed solely by Hitler, whether he knew the precise details or not, he appointed these people, he told them to deal with the 'Jewish Question' and may not have asked too many questions about it.
Either way, it wasn't in his sole will that the people die in such awful conditions, however many did.

Quote:
The question of the present-day legality or otherwise of being a 'holocaust denier' is neither here nor there when it comes to determining whether or not the holocaust happened.
I think otherwise, in my younger days during history lessons I denied the holocaust twice, both times resulted in ridiculous punishments such as external fixed-term expulsion.

Quote:
I'm sorely tempted because I never yet read someone deny the Holocaust who wasn't anti-semitic. You may, of course, be the exception.
Most people I know deny the holocaust haven't been anti semitic - I have KNOWN that the holocaust is very innacurate since I first found out what it was, and never would I describe myself as hating jews.

Quote:
Satanic pagan rituals.
F*CKING LOL, you obviously know nothing about the pagan faith. True, Himmler was a Pagan in his later years, but the Pagan religion is the exact opposite of Satanism.

I was into white magick for a short while and read books by Pagan authors where they denounced Satanism at every single opportunity. PAGANISM IS THE OPPOSITE OF SATANISM NOT THE SAME!

Quote:
What kind of person would come out today in these modern times, in the face of overwhelming evidence, and say stuff like "The holocost never happened" or even "Hitler knew nothing of it".
What overwhelming evidence? You mean personal accounts of 'survivors' not backed up with any bit of evidence whatsoever? OH SO.... OVERWHELMING, OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

I'm not saying the holocaust never happened at all, I'm just saying the numbers are VERY VERY VERY innacurate, on painfully obvious levels.

Quote:
But there is a movement today to say that Russian communism wasnt that cruel either, or the gulags were not that bad, etc etc. Its kinda along the same lines as this stuff.
Communism is an entirely different ideaology which no rationally thinking man should support; it's based on manipulation of the public in order to gain power over them, and on a more obvious scale than the same tactis being used together.

They use rhetoric such as "freedom", "workers rights" and such other trash, which is meaningless, because all they really want is power.
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