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Old January 10th, 2017, 03:34 PM   #51

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I don't think that is prejudice in any way. He's just writing what he finds, or maybe what someone else has told him. Should he lie to protect their sensibilities?
The very nub of prejudice as you well know; being ignorance.
(no pun intended)

But, everyone in the entire province is a robbing, thief! That is a hard historical challenge from where i am, i.e. in 2017. I'm guessing not; but i cannot ignore meaningful evidence??

Should he lie? If they are proud of their civilisation they should have no problem people talking about it, even if negative. If a majority are not so proud of such a custom (and are overly sensitive about it) they might invite outside criticism; and more effectively use it to pressure for change.

With Marco Polo there are few complexities and ambiguities in eastern culture in the C13th.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 12:03 AM   #52

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The very nub of prejudice as you well know; being ignorance.
(no pun intended)

But, everyone in the entire province is a robbing, thief! That is a hard historical challenge from where i am, i.e. in 2017. I'm guessing not; but i cannot ignore meaningful evidence??

Should he lie? If they are proud of their civilisation they should have no problem people talking about it, even if negative. If a majority are not so proud of such a custom (and are overly sensitive about it) they might invite outside criticism; and more effectively use it to pressure for change.

With Marco Polo there are few complexities and ambiguities in eastern culture in the C13th.
Just sort of brings to mind the comment on Bengal - was it Lord Canning? Lord Curzon? Sorry can't remember:

"Bengal is a low-lying land, full of low, lying people"

I'm sure (I hope) he was being flippant but of course it doesn't look good today!
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Old January 11th, 2017, 11:23 AM   #53

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Just sort of brings to mind the comment on Bengal - was it Lord Canning? Lord Curzon? Sorry can't remember:

"Bengal is a low-lying land, full of low, lying people"

I'm sure (I hope) he was being flippant but of course it doesn't look good today!
'If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.' (Mark Twain).

Evidently not very PC.

As an aside to revisionism:

'People think that a liar gains a victory over his victim. What I’ve learned is that a lie is an act of self-abdication, because one surrenders one’s reality to the person to whom one lies, making that person one’s master, condemning oneself from then on to faking the sort of reality that person’s view requires to be faked…The man who lies to the world, is the world’s slave from then on…There are no white lies, there is only the blackest of destruction, and a white lie is the blackest of all.” (Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged).

+

'But you can't make people listen. They have to come round in their own time, wondering what happened and why the world blew up around them. It can't last.” (Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451).

Allowing the concept of questioning things, this quote 'everything is just a point of reference', shouldn't be important to history, but what the heck!

Last edited by dreuxeng; January 11th, 2017 at 12:57 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 08:50 PM   #54
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Marco Polo writes of the people of Tebeth: 'These people are treacherous and cruel, and holding it no crime or turpitude to rob, are the greatest thieves in the world.'

Is this merely casual prejudice, or can this really have been the case, and more specifically in contrast to other neighbouring provinces, such as Chengdu or Caindu, where nothing similar is even mentioned?

Or would any attempt at historical revision find only a shortage of meaningful documentary evidence, in contrast to certain contemporary or later 'narratives'. And either way would that merely allow only a re-interpretation of the 'historical record'.
What is Tebeth? If Tebeth is Tibet than the nearest tibetan town of kangding is like 700 km far away from chengdu so i dont think chengdu and jangding are neighbours.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 02:12 AM   #55

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What is Tebeth? If Tebeth is Tibet than the nearest tibetan town of kangding is like 700 km far away from chengdu so i dont think chengdu and jangding are neighbours.
It does say Tebeth is Tibet; which bordered Song Dynasty China. Caindu appears as a version of Xichang.
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Old January 15th, 2017, 04:01 AM   #56

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We all have certain topics that are close to our hearts. I actually admire your response, because it reminds me of the similar sentiments I’ve felt when defending Muslims against prejudice and stereotypes on this forum. If there’s anyone on this forum who knows how you feel, it’s probably me.

I’m still not convinced that Hannibal of Carthage was ‘black’ in the sense of being a sub-Saharan African similar to someone from Uganda or Nigeria. But I can at least respect your post. And I didn’t come here to troll. It was simply the first example that came to mind – probably because there have been so many posts about it already, as you mentioned.

I could just as easily have made a post about irritating historical misconceptions about Muslims. But experience tells me that the response is so nasty, so hostile, so bitter and so ugly that it is hardly worth the time. Perhaps you can relate to that too – it sounds from your post like you understand what I mean.

1. Hannibal Barca being depicted as a Sub-Saharan African by the History Channel is within historical context. African, Afro-Eurasian, and Eurasian remains were found in Carthage. There are no known depictions of Hannibal Barca as told by historians on this matter. So no depiction of Hannibal Barca would be completely accurate anyway. History Channel was displaying him in a skin tone/phenotype that would of existed in Punic Carthage including the aristocracy. They were not revising history to force an agenda. This is a racial charged claim you still have no evidence for. Whether it was intentional or not it is within historical accuracy as we don't know exactly what Hannibal looked like. You can believe he is lighter. There is no wrong answer on this.

2. You only talked about part of your list of revisionism. You said Blacks never lived in North Africa nor Carthage. You still have not shown that.
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Old January 15th, 2017, 07:07 AM   #57
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It does say Tebeth is Tibet; which bordered Song Dynasty China. Caindu appears as a version of Xichang.
There is almost borderline racism against the Tibetans in medieval texts. We are painted as savages and country of robbers. We really do need historicle revisionism in cases like this.
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Old January 15th, 2017, 08:50 AM   #58

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There is almost borderline racism against the Tibetans in medieval texts. We are painted as savages and country of robbers. We really do need historicle revisionism in cases like this.
Right! Exactly.......

'Book 2, Ch.37: The province of Tebeth (TIBET) was laid entirely to waste at the time Mongu Khan carried his arms into that country. To the distance of twenty days’ journey you see numerous towns and castles in a state of ruin; and in consequence of the want of inhabitants, wild beasts, and especially lions, have multiplied to such a degree that merchants and other travellers are exposed there to great danger during the night.'

Perhaps if this area during the Yuan Dynasty is lawless to whatever extent, robbers and bandits proliferated...??! And subsequent opinions were thereby disparaging (lacking an inclination for any further reading of the facts).

Or they simply would not surrender, and made a courageous fight of it, against the invader!?

Last edited by dreuxeng; January 15th, 2017 at 08:52 AM.
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Old January 15th, 2017, 08:56 AM   #59

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1. Hannibal Barca being depicted as a Sub-Saharan African by the History Channel is within historical context. African, Afro-Eurasian, and Eurasian remains were found in Carthage. There are no known depictions of Hannibal Barca as told by historians on this matter. So no depiction of Hannibal Barca would be completely accurate anyway. History Channel was displaying him in a skin tone/phenotype that would of existed in Punic Carthage including the aristocracy. They were not revising history to force an agenda. This is a racial charged claim you still have no evidence for. Whether it was intentional or not it is within historical accuracy as we don't know exactly what Hannibal looked like. You can believe he is lighter. There is no wrong answer on this.

2. You only talked about part of your list of revisionism. You said Blacks never lived in North Africa nor Carthage. You still have not shown that.
To be fair they only did that to make him look more badass, which is a sad commentary on society's standards, but still.
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Old January 15th, 2017, 08:59 AM   #60

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Originally Posted by Hannibal89 View Post
1. Hannibal Barca being depicted as a Sub-Saharan African by the History Channel is within historical context. African, Afro-Eurasian, and Eurasian remains were found in Carthage. There are no known depictions of Hannibal Barca as told by historians on this matter. So no depiction of Hannibal Barca would be completely accurate anyway. History Channel was displaying him in a skin tone/phenotype that would of existed in Punic Carthage including the aristocracy. They were not revising history to force an agenda. This is a racial charged claim you still have no evidence for. Whether it was intentional or not it is within historical accuracy as we don't know exactly what Hannibal looked like. You can believe he is lighter. There is no wrong answer on this.

2. You only talked about part of your list of revisionism. You said Blacks never lived in North Africa nor Carthage. You still have not shown that.

The problem with enthusiastic Afrocentrists is that they try so hard to make their case that they end up looking amazingly stupid.
This fanciful imagining of Hannibal from an American Afrocentrist website will bring a chuckle to anyone from the UK as it is clearly comedian Lenny Henry--proving perhaps that Hannibal really came from Dudley in Worcestershire. Funny how the Greeks who made the only bust of him during his lifetime that has survived got things so wrong.

The image was actually invented for a beer commercial decades ago, but has been adopted by loonies and thickos as genuine ever since.



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