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Old January 16th, 2017, 09:17 AM   #31

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Not at all. Swastika was something not many Europeans were familiar with so it became synonymous with Nazism. Plus it was never used in Germany before so it could be said that it was introduced by the Nazis in Germany. But not the checkerboard. It has been in use since medieval times. Checkerboard with the letter U is a fascist symbol, without it not so much.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 09:48 AM   #32

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Not at all. Swastika was something not many Europeans were familiar with so it became synonymous with Nazism. Plus it was never used in Germany before so it could be said that it was introduced by the Nazis in Germany. But not the checkerboard. It has been in use since medieval times. Checkerboard with the letter U is a fascist symbol, without it not so much.
Spoiler alert: Neither was the checkerboard

None of the Lords of Croatia under Austria Hungary used it prominently in their coat of arms (it was a sidenote at best). It was a necromanced symbol brought back from hundreds of years of extinction by ultranationalists in the interwar.

This for example is the coat of arms of the house of Jelascic

Click the image to open in full size.

B-but what about the independent Kingdom of Croatia?

Centuries ago.

PS it takes away from the force of my argument, but actually the Swastika (and the Roman Salute) were very well known in Europe pre-Nazi
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Old January 16th, 2017, 11:03 AM   #33
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Spoiler alert: Neither was the checkerboard

None of the Lords of Croatia under Austria Hungary used it prominently in their coat of arms (it was a sidenote at best). It was a necromanced symbol brought back from hundreds of years of extinction by ultranationalists in the interwar.

This for example is the coat of arms of the house of Jelascic

Click the image to open in full size.

B-but what about the independent Kingdom of Croatia?

Centuries ago.

PS it takes away from the force of my argument, but actually the Swastika (and the Roman Salute) were very well known in Europe pre-Nazi
The checkerboard always represented Croatia (at least since the early modern period) in the heraldics for example the middle coat of arts of Hungary during the duaist period, 19th century

Click the image to open in full size.

in the center the coat of arms of Hungary proper, then Dalmatia (the lion heads), Croatia (the checkerboard), Slavonia (the one with the 6 pointed star and the marten), and then Transylvania and Fiume/Rijeka

The Ustasha didn't reinvent it, it was already the symbol of Croatia.

Last edited by Tulun; January 16th, 2017 at 11:06 AM.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 11:26 AM   #34
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The bigger point I was proving was to answer OP, Eastern Europeans are considerably more comfortable with their fascist collaborators than Italians and Germans are with their fascist leaders. Today in Serbia, Chetniks aren't in bad repute among a huge section of the population. Same goes for Horthy in Hungary and Antonescu in Romania.
to an extent it is true. though better to say they are still divisive, but not universally rejected, mostly the current right wing is looking back at them favorably. Horthy is still controversal,favourable among the right wing and disliked among the left and libs but he still hasn't reached the "political rehabilitation" (legally he doesn't need one since he was never tried and sentenced), it is still controversal issue raising debates to name something after him (i think only 2 smaller settlements have Horthy streets), or have a statue for him but i think that is also just a matter of time until we reach there. in a way it is an understandable consequence of the decades long communist reign when the right was totally repressed so they are picking up the line where it was cut. And the trend is the same probably in the whole former commie block, from the Baltics to the Balkans.

Last edited by Tulun; January 16th, 2017 at 11:29 AM.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 12:15 PM   #35

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Throughout history, there were leaders (Edit: e.g. Attila, Genghis) whose forces outperformed the SS, Gestapo, Einsatzgruppen, and whatnot . How many of them are hailed as national heroes?
'Outperformed the SS?' By sheer technological and logistical advancement alone, I highly doubt that.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 01:41 PM   #36

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Originally Posted by Tulun View Post
to an extent it is true. though better to say they are still divisive, but not universally rejected, mostly the current right wing is looking back at them favorably. Horthy is still controversal,favourable among the right wing and disliked among the left and libs but he still hasn't reached the "political rehabilitation" (legally he doesn't need one since he was never tried and sentenced), it is still controversal issue raising debates to name something after him (i think only 2 smaller settlements have Horthy streets), or have a statue for him but i think that is also just a matter of time until we reach there. in a way it is an understandable consequence of the decades long communist reign when the right was totally repressed so they are picking up the line where it was cut. And the trend is the same probably in the whole former commie block, from the Baltics to the Balkans.
It's true, definitely controversial. Invoking their memories won't get you torched however, though there are progressive elements that would recoil at it.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 08:29 AM   #37

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In Ukraine, there's a huge controversy over Stepan Bandera, Roman Shukhevych and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. It's accepted by historians that they were Nazi collaborators who ethnically cleansed Jews and Poles (and Ukrainians who disagreed with them), but apologists insist they were fighting both the Soviets and the Germans and there were Jewish UIA fighters. The few Jewish UIA members were mainly medical personnel who were later murdered.

The frustrating part about the UIA/Bandera rehabilitation is that the vast majority of Ukrainians never supported them and still don't, but the Ukrainian government is allowing a few vocal nationalists to rewrite history around a minor Galician fascist movement.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 11:38 PM   #38

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Can't really say of others but Mannerheim was not in any manner a 'counterpart' to Hitler.
He was not. I agree.

That he had to join the Axis, given Finland's geographical position, and recent was with the Soviet Union, was understable.

That he was halfway-willing ally of Hitler and did not attack Leningrad is well-known.

So I had to ask myself just one more question. Were Finnish Jews deported and killed during WWII?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hist...ews_in_Finland

Seven were, but it follows from the article that in general, they were not persecuted to the same degree as in other countries. Nothing even remotedly comparable. And under direct order of Mannerheim 160 were transferred to Sweden.

Which means the ideology of WWII Finland was not that of a Nazi country. And that in no was was Mannerheim part of the genocide, the Holocaust. If a soldier chooses the side, but does not subscribe to the politic nor ideology of this side, he's a military ally and nothing more.

Last edited by arkteia; February 6th, 2017 at 11:45 PM.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 11:52 PM   #39

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No one is the full counterpart of Hitler. Had he managed to avoid nationalistic idea and did not kill millions of Jews, Romas and Slavs, his closest counterpart could be Napoleon, who after so many years is viewed in the heroic light. But since the ideology of Nazism is so stinking, there is none.
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