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Old May 16th, 2017, 07:44 AM   #21

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I believe the statement from Forbes on the goodwill from Morocco was referring to its relation with America in modern times.

It was a terrible ally initially. Morocco and the USA didn't hash out the issue diplomatically, well they tried but it didn't work. The Barbary states Morocco, Tunis, Algiers and Tripoli captured American ships and took the hostages as slaves. They were very insulting to ambassadors and believed the Americans were inferior and they had a right to do this because they were Christians.

They kept demanding further tribute until America finally got the necessary force to fight back.

As for ships operating in your waters, did the Barbary states have claim to all the Mediterranean? Did that justify enslaving those on the ship?

You can make a moral equivalency with America also having slavery although I doubt the Barbary states did away with it because they had some internal abolitionist movement that recognized slavery was wrong.

If you want to look at a story of good relations between a Muslim country and the USA look at the Ottoman Empire or Egypt.
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Old May 16th, 2017, 08:02 AM   #22

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Quote:
Originally Posted by antocya View Post
I believe the statement from Forbes on the goodwill from Morocco was referring to its relation with America in modern times.

It was a terrible ally initially. Morocco and the USA didn't hash out the issue diplomatically, well they tried but it didn't work. The Barbary states Morocco, Tunis, Algiers and Tripoli captured American ships and took the hostages as slaves. They were very insulting to ambassadors and believed the Americans were inferior and they had a right to do this because they were Christians.

They kept demanding further tribute until America finally got the necessary force to fight back.

As for ships operating in your waters, did the Barbary states have claim to all the Mediterranean? Did that justify enslaving those on the ship?

You can make a moral equivalency with America also having slavery although I doubt the Barbary states did away with it because they had some internal abolitionist movement that recognized slavery was wrong.

If you want to look at a story of good relations between a Muslim country and the USA look at the Ottoman Empire or Egypt.
Well to your points one Mr Moulay Hafid Elalamy has suggested that,

Morocco has enjoyed a vibrant relationship with the United States since time immemorial.

Elalamy is not jsut an ordinary Arab Muslim...he is a top gov official of Morocco and he is saying that the US and Morocco friendly relations predates the modern times. So I may have to disagree with you labeling Morocco as a terrible ally of the USA, initially that is. ...there are to many variables at play ie the fact that American ships were in lands that were not theres those American ships should have been protected.... If I went on an expedition from America to Africa looking for slaves, gold, loot, etc...well I would be sure to protect myself.

As for the comment on how Moroccans viewed Christians...well reminds of how American whites viewed blacks...though to that point I recall reading a comment from a Tunisian envoy visiting with Thomas Jefferson...that enjoy praised Judaism, Islam, and Christianity but was indeed critical of the religion of the native Americans. And indeed Thomas Jefferson was said to be an admirer of the Quran.

On the morning of November 30, 1805, a salute from the guns of the frigate U.S.S. Congress announced the arrival of the Tunisian envoy to the United States. Sidi Soliman Mellimelli and his attendants were greeted at the Washington Navy Yard with full military honors and by a crowd of curious onlookers.1 The curious were not to be disappointed by the appearance of the first Muslim envoy to the United States — he was a large figure with a full dark beard and he dressed in robes of richly embroidered fabrics and wore a turban of fine white muslin.
....

Despite whispers regarding his conduct, Mellimelli received invitations to numerous dinners and balls and, according to one Washington hostess, was "the lion of the season."8 At the president's New Year's Day levee, the Tunisian envoy provided "its most brilliant and splendid spectacle," and he added to his melodramatic image at a later dinner party hosted by the secretary of state. Upon learning that the Madisons were unhappy at being childless, Mellimelli flung his "magical" cloak around Dolley Madison and murmured an incantation that promised she would bear a male child. His conjuring, however, did not work.9

Differences in culture and customs stirred interest on both sides. Mellimelli's generous use of scented rose oil was noted by many of those who met him, and guards had to be posted outside his lodgings to turn away the curious.10 For his part, the Tunisian was surprised at the social freedom women enjoyed in America and was especially intrigued by several delegations of Native Americans from the western territories then visiting Washington. Mellimelli inquired which prophet the Indians followed — Moses, Jesus Christ, or Mohammed. When the Indians replied "none," and explained that they worshipped "the Great Spirit" alone, he was reported to have pronounced them "vile hereticks."11


https://www.monticello.org/site/rese...tunisian-envoy


So again to your point during the early 19th century I could see some American Christians not wanting to relate with African Muslims and vs versa...but such attitudes were not universal.
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Old May 16th, 2017, 08:11 AM   #23

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What has the relation between Morocco and US to do with who was first in recognizing the USA?

In any case if you refer to a completely formal (via diplomatic treaties) one it is France, otherwise it is Holland, followed by Morocco. Holland was selling all kinds of stuff via the Antilles (St. Eustatius was called the "golden rock" for the money that was being made), in which case it is handy to recognize the chaps you are selling to. For Morocco it was a similar reason (it is hard to get "bribed" if you don't recognize the payer).
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Old May 16th, 2017, 08:30 AM   #24

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What I can tell you William is that I am interested in which country was the first the recognize the USA. And certainly I would be interested in the type of alliance/friendship that was had between the US and the countries that were among the first to recognize the US.

Earlier itt I posted a link from a Us state dept cite saying,


What country was the first to recognize the United States?
France recognized the United States as an independent state on February 6, 1778.

https://history.state.gov/about/faq/...o-recognize-US

Yet perhaps to your points you are right and it was not Morocco that was the first country to recognize the USA.


U.S.-MOROCCO RELATIONS

Morocco formally recognized the United States by signing a treaty of peace and friendship in 1786. Full diplomatic relations began in 1905. Morocco entered into the status of a French protectorate from 1912 to 1956, and normal diplomatic relations were resumed after U.S. recognition of Moroccan independence in 1956. The two countries share common concerns and consult closely on regional security and sustainable development. Morocco is a strong partner in counterterrorism efforts, and it works closely with U.S. law enforcement to safeguard both countries’ national security interests.


https://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5431.htm

Last edited by JoanOfArc007; May 16th, 2017 at 08:43 AM. Reason: wrong link...replaced forbes link with the Us state dept link
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Old May 16th, 2017, 08:31 AM   #25

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willempie View Post
What has the relation between Morocco and US to do with who was first in recognizing the USA?

In any case if you refer to a completely formal (via diplomatic treaties) one it is France, otherwise it is Holland, followed by Morocco. Holland was selling all kinds of stuff via the Antilles (St. Eustatius was called the "golden rock" for the money that was being made), in which case it is handy to recognize the chaps you are selling to. For Morocco it was a similar reason (it is hard to get "bribed" if you don't recognize the payer).
I think that you will find that the Dutch Republic's diplomatic recognition of the United States, only in 1782, was forced on the Dutch government by Amsterdam bankers who wanted state underwriting of their $2 million loan to Congress.
Morocco signed a worthless treaty with teh US in 1777 that permitted US owned and flagged ships to enter Moroccan ports, but despite pretense that this involved diplomatic recognition--it did not. Such recognition only occurred in 1786 three years after the Treaty of Paris and the acceptable payment of protection money, bribes and payoffs.
(see, start as you intend to go on)
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Old May 16th, 2017, 08:33 AM   #26

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I don't know what prompted El Alamy's statement here, was he speaking at an event? It sounds like typical flowery diplomatic speech coming from a government official.

A good ally doesn't continuously extort protection money and seize its ally's citizens for ransom. In fact I don't believe they could be considered allies at all at that point, just they'd signed a treaty.

American ships in the Mediterranean were not looking for gold, slaves or loot. They wanted to bring their exports for sale in Mediterranean markets. I think most slaves in America were taken from the Caribbean or Brazil, not directly from Africa. Was the Transatlantic slave trade still ongoing at that time? And were American ships commonly involved in it or did they bring slaves from middlemen? I don't know enough about it but I'm fairly certain the Barbary pirates weren't attacking American ships out of protection. North Africa was never a source of the transatlantic slave trade.
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Old May 16th, 2017, 08:58 AM   #27

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Quote:
Originally Posted by antocya View Post
I don't know what prompted El Alamy's statement here, was he speaking at an event? It sounds like typical flowery diplomatic speech coming from a government official.

A good ally doesn't continuously extort protection money and seize its ally's citizens for ransom. In fact I don't believe they could be considered allies at all at that point, just they'd signed a treaty.

American ships in the Mediterranean were not looking for gold, slaves or loot. They wanted to bring their exports for sale in Mediterranean markets. I think most slaves in America were taken from the Caribbean or Brazil, not directly from Africa. Was the Transatlantic slave trade still ongoing at that time? And were American ships commonly involved in it or did they bring slaves from middlemen? I don't know enough about it but I'm fairly certain the Barbary pirates weren't attacking American ships out of protection. North Africa was never a source of the transatlantic slave trade.
I was trying to make a general point that the Moroccan and Tunisians of the 19th century were morally speaking, no better or worse when compared to Americans....but certainly you raise interesting points and I am going to try and dig up some information on why exactly American ships were operating in non American waters.

The backdrop to this state visit was the ongoing conflict between the United States and the Barbary states, autonomous provinces of the Ottoman Empire that rimmed the Mediterranean coast of North Africa. Soon after the Revolutionary War, and the consequent loss of the British navy's protection, American merchant vessels had become prey for Barbary corsairs.3 Jefferson was outraged by the demands of ransom for civilians captured from American vessels and by the Barbary states' expectation of annual tribute to be paid as insurance against future seizures. He took an uncharacteristically hawkish position against the prevailing thought that it was cheaper to pay tribute than maintain a navy to protect shipping from piracy.4

The crisis with Tunis erupted when the U.S.S. Constitution captured Tunisian vessels attempting to run the American blockade of Tripoli. The bey of Tunis threatened war and sent Mellimelli to the United States to negotiate full restitution for the captured vessels and to barter for tribute.5

Jefferson balked at paying tribute but accepted the expectation that the host government would cover all expenses for such an emissary. He arranged for Mellimelli and his eleven attendants to be housed at a Washington hotel, and rationalized that the sale of the four horses and other fine gifts sent by the bey of Tunis would cover costs.6 Mellimelli's request for "concubines" as a part of his accommodations was left to Secretary of State James Madison. Jefferson assured one senator that obtaining peace with the Barbary powers was important enough to "pass unnoticed the irregular conduct of their ministers."7


https://www.monticello.org/site/rese...tunisian-envoy

So we need to find out a few things...because I have a difficult time believing that either side was innocent or the good guy especially when both practiced slavery. What is for sure is we need to dig more into this topic, ie when were treaties signed, why were the American ships unprotected...
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Old May 16th, 2017, 10:26 AM   #28

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The following site,

https://www.quora.com/Why-was-Morocc...s-independence

Has brought me to what was known as the Treaty of Marrakech....now this is interesting because it is being said that such a Treaty was signed prior to the US becoming a country....so while perhaps Morocco was not the first country to formally recognize the US as fellow poster Williampie brings up....what we have from the following source is the claim that Morocco has the longest standing treaty with the USA.


The treaty is scarcely remembered today, but it was important in its time. When he became president in 1789, George Washington wrote the sultan of Morocco, a Muslim, to thank him for his “encouragement” and “the punctuality with which you have caused the Treaty with us to be observed.” Good will come of it, he said.

“Within our territories, there are no mines, wither of gold or silver, and this young nation just recovering from the waste and dissolution of a long war, have not, as yet, had time to acquire riches by agriculture and commerce,” Washington wrote. “But our soil is bountiful, and our people industrious, and we have reason to flatter ourselves that we shall gradually become useful to our friends.”

The treaty came about when the commercial interests of the fledgling United States and Morocco came together – but largely due to friendly gestures by the sultan of Morocco, Mohamed Ben Abdullah. In 1777, just as Washington and his troops were setting up camp for the winter in Valley Forge, the sultan granted American ships safe passage through the Straits of Gibraltar, which Morocco controlled.

By including America in a maritime treaty, Morocco is considered the first country to recognize the newly independent country. The follow-up treaty of “friendship and amity” was urged in 1783 by American commissioners in Paris – Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, and John Jay – signed in Morocco in 1786, and ratified by the new Congress a year later.


225 Years After the Treaty of Marrakech | The Weekly Standard
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Old May 16th, 2017, 10:26 AM   #29

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Further resources,

The following provides the details of a Moroccan treaty with the USA from June 28 and July 15, 1786...so the following is an english translation of what the Moroccan representatives prepared for US representatives,

The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816
Treaty with Morocco June 28 and July 15, 1786



To all Persons to whom these Presents shall come or be made known- Whereas the United States of America in Congress assembled by their Commission bearing date the twelvth day of May One thousand Seven hundred and Eighty four thought proper to constitute John Adams, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson their Ministers Plenipotentiary, giving to them or a Majority of them full Powers to confer, treat & negotiate with the Ambassador, Minister or Commissioner of His Majesty the Emperor of Morocco concerning a Treaty of Amity and Commerce, to make & receive propositions for such Treaty and to conclude and sign the same, transmitting it to the United States in Congress assembled for their final Ratification, And by one other (commission bearing date the Eleventh day of March One thousand Seven hundred & Eighty five did further empower the said Ministers Plenipotentiary or a majority of them, by writing under the* hands and Seals to appoint such Agent in the said Business as they might think proper with Authority under the directions and Instructions of the said Ministers to commence & prosecute the said Negotiations & Conferences for the said Treaty provided that the said Treaty should be signed by the said Ministers: And Whereas, We the said John Adams & Thomas Jefferson two of the said Ministers Plenipotentiary (the said Benjamin Franklin being absent) by writing under the Hand and Seal of the said John Adams at London October the fifth, One thousand Seven hundred and Eighty five, & of the said Thomas Jefferson at Paris October the Eleventh of the same Year, did appoint Thomas Barclay, Agent in the Business aforesaid, giving him the Powers therein, which by the said second Commission we were authorized to give, and the said Thomas Barclay in pursuance thereof, hath arranged Articles for a Treaty of Amity and Commerce between the United States of America and His Majesty the Emperor of Morocco, which Articles written in the Arabic Language, confirmed by His said Majesty the Emperor of Morocco & seal'd with His Royal Seal, being translated into the Language of the said United States of America, together with the Attestations thereto annexed are in the following Words, To Wit.

In the name of Almighty God,

This is a Treaty of Peace and Friendship established between us and the United States of America, which is confirmed, and which we have ordered to be written in this Book and sealed with our Royal Seal at our Court of Morocco on the twenty fifth day of the blessed Month of Shaban, in the Year One thousand two hundred, trusting in God it will remain permanent.


Avalon Project - The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty with Morocco June 28 and July 15, 1786
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Old May 16th, 2017, 10:39 AM   #30

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American ships were there to export goods in the Mediterranean. The only comparison I can think of to show the two sides as the same is that they both practiced slavery. The Barbary states had a very long history of piracy in which they enslaved Christians, it wasn't just American ships. America was just vulnerable after the war with no navy to defend themselves. The Barbary states kept demanding further tribute because they knew America was vulnerable at the time.
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