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Old July 13th, 2017, 05:48 AM   #11
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Yes, if the west had just made the Friedmanites keep their mitts off of Russia, things could have gone better.
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Old July 13th, 2017, 07:20 AM   #12

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester View Post
As Larrey said, why win the war and lose the peace?

Had there been something in place like the Marshall Plan to rebuild Russian industry then perhaps the new Cold War might have been averted? Perhaps the tradition of the 'strong man/autocracy' would be replaced by Liberal Democracy supported by Capitalism like the success story of West Germany?

Instead we see vast differences in wealth and the emergence of a nouveau Tsar.
Who says we have lost the peace? As I previously posted, the last 25 years have been much less stressful than the 45 year Cold War which preceded it. Let's keep things in historical perspective: as much as many believe Russia is a nemesis today, the threat is nowhere near what it was 30 years ago, in my opinion. I don't see us "losing the peace" anytime soon.
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Old July 13th, 2017, 10:02 AM   #13
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The limited objective of "keep Russia down for a while" is precisely that — limited. Since sooner or later Russia isn't "down" anymore. And that's when it matters in what kind of place Russia then finds itself, how it feels about its place in the world, itself, and recent history. THAT's when it matters to go for a rather BIGGER picture than simply wanting Russia to have a hard time for a couple of decades, since misery loves company, and Russia is well-placed to spread some around. The ambitious, but ultimately more worthwhile approach, is to NOT end up with a revanchistic Russia — much like the world is rather better off without revanchistic Germany, a revanchistic France, a revanchistic China, or for that matter a hypothetically revanchistic Britain or US.

Though on balance, at this juncture, Xi's China's tendency to again start to regard the world as a place of tributary kingdom that gets to trade with the Middle Kinggdom as a kind of privilege, as paying tribute, is a bigger concern.
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Old July 13th, 2017, 10:12 AM   #14
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had we treated the USSR the same way we treated Red China... the Soviet Union would have gradually embraced capitalism and social reforms just as China has... and become aq much more reasonable player on the world stage.
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Old July 13th, 2017, 10:13 AM   #15

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester View Post
As Larrey said, why win the war and lose the peace?

Had there been something in place like the Marshall Plan to rebuild Russian industry then perhaps the new Cold War might have been averted? Perhaps the tradition of the 'strong man/autocracy' would be replaced by Liberal Democracy supported by Capitalism like the success story of West Germany?

Instead we see vast differences in wealth and the emergence of a nouveau Tsar.
Besides which there was little or no political will for such a massive undertaking. For years generation after generation of western politicans had thrown tizzy fits and frothed at the mouth at the very mention of Russia. The carve up of the evil empire had featured high on their wish list, they weren`t about to throw it a lifeline.
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Old July 13th, 2017, 11:22 AM   #16

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Interesting OP as today actually marks the anniversary of the 1998 IMF bailout of Russia, spearheaded by the US to the tune of 17 billion dollars. Not exactly a Marshall plan but then Russia didn't exactly repay lend-lease with smiles and well wishes either

Last edited by Bishop; July 13th, 2017 at 11:28 AM.
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Old July 13th, 2017, 12:09 PM   #17

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Germany had for many generations held the tradition of being militaristic, yet post WW2 a Liberal Democracy was achieved. How come Western Germany was such a success story in the face of such a different history? Could the same result really not have been achieved with post Cold War Russia had the East been flooded with dollar diplomacy?
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Old July 13th, 2017, 12:11 PM   #18

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodger View Post
Who says we have lost the peace? As I previously posted, the last 25 years have been much less stressful than the 45 year Cold War which preceded it. Let's keep things in historical perspective: as much as many believe Russia is a nemesis today, the threat is nowhere near what it was 30 years ago, in my opinion. I don't see us "losing the peace" anytime soon.

I wouldn't call the invasion of Ukranian territory, the shooting down of an airliner or the alleged meddling in the US election particlarly peaceful. Tho it is probably a bit better than MAD.
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Old July 13th, 2017, 12:24 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester View Post
Germany had for many generations held the tradition of being militaristic, yet post WW2 a Liberal Democracy was achieved. How come Western Germany was such a success story in the face of such a different history? Could the same result really not have been achieved with post Cold War Russia had the East been flooded with dollar diplomacy?
It massively helped that pretty much EVERY idea EVER floated about Germany being "special" in ANY way that might be construed as "just a leeetle bit better", had recently been thoroughly discredited — like in world-shattering ways — to the Germans themselves. Not just a military defeat, being brung low by circumstances and a hostile word, but everything about Germanness being put through the wringer due to German actions. The post-Soviet world has never experienced anything like it. Like the US and UK, they "won The War" after all.

Last edited by Larrey; July 13th, 2017 at 12:27 PM.
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Old July 13th, 2017, 12:51 PM   #20

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The GDR certainly wanted to be recognized officially by the West but didn't achieve such until the 70's
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