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Old November 20th, 2017, 02:26 PM   #41

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It was founded because the Spaniards crossed it. Why not the Algerians or even the Morocans were able to do it?
They didn't want to, simple as that.

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Moaist^You can say that they have that ability, but what is the evidence of them using that to stop Spain from conquering the Philippines which is obviously within the territorial sphere of influence of China. Didn't the Chinese burned their vessels instead of using them? Wasn't that foolish and an evidence of degeneration of logic to use them?
The Spanish conquest of the Philippines happened decades after America. I don't think the Spanish would have been able to contend with Indian, Indonesian and Chinese ships that easily with their pre-colonial ships.

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The Mongols were simply stopped by those castles in Western Europe.
No, they weren't. They were stopped by geography. Sure enough they were invading Central Europe, but they pulled back due to logistics of reaching to Europe all the way from Asia, not because Europeans had better fortifications. Had the Europeans been the first to be invaded by the Mongols, they would have been conquered as well.

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No, the Spaniards were building larger ships because they were Spaniards and not the conquered.
They built larger and better ships until they conquered America and had enough resources to build said ships. Pre-colonial Spanish and European ships were no better than that of Muslims, Chinese, etc.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 02:29 PM   #42

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Well don't want to comment on other items but the Mongols did not take the Chinese by surprise. Jin / Song was not surprised that they were hit by their northern neighbors. They were ill prepared for the Mongols? Sure, but surprised?
The Muslims of Central Asia, however, were surprised. Also, the Jin wasn't at war with the Mongols and didn't pay attention to them, so even they were very much attacked by surprised by Genghis as well.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 02:31 PM   #43

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One wonders then why the people who had those same resources did not invent 1/10 of what Europeans invented.
One also wonders what has colonialism to do with Newton, Galileo, Copernicus and the myriad of Europeans scientists that are famous worldwide.
They didn't have those resources, for one. They only had comparable ones. Two, why is it that no Newton and Galileo emerged before the colonisation of America? They only were able to emerge becuase Europeans were able to become rich enough through colonialism to fund these intellectuals.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 02:35 PM   #44
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Moaist^You can say that they have that ability, but what is the evidence of them using that to stop Spain from conquering the Philippines which is obviously within the territorial sphere of influence of China. Didn't the Chinese burned their vessels instead of using them? Wasn't that foolish and an evidence of degeneration of logic to use them?

The Mongols were simply stopped by those castles in Western Europe. No, the Spaniards were building larger ships because they were Spaniards and not the conquered.
No, the territorial sphere of influence of China was the culture sphere in which people follow the Confucian order and submit to China through the contributory system. The various states in which follows the tributary relations were not colonized, at least not from the time which Ming dynasty was concerned.

Second, Ming didn't burn their ships, but rather mothballed. It wasn't a foolish act. And it is not an evidence of degeneration of logic.

Anyone saying Ming which stopped their major naval operations after 1434 should be responsible for the Qing's eventual naval defeat at the hands of western powers is the one showing a degeneration of logic. The Ming's ships and fleets were unlike the merchant marine fleet of other states. Ming's political system and bureaucracy prevents the state from actively trading and competing against trading families in the south east. Having an enormous fleet that are expensive to maintain for no real reason is a degeneration of logic to any politician. There were obviously no enemies in sight, and no ships these size were necessary to patrol the sea, why have a giant fleet?

In retrospective thoughts, maybe you can say well they should have kept the fleet in 15th century, but then we ask again, to do what?


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No, the Spaniards were building larger ships because they were Spaniards and not the conquered.
Are you comparing Chinese ship size with Spanish ship size of the same time period?

Who was this conquered you speak of.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 02:39 PM   #45
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They simply didn't want to expand, nor need to. The reason why Europe funded Columbus was because they were being pushed out by the Ottomans. Neither the Indians nor the Chinese were in a similar situation and were more stable, thus they didn't need to expand like Europeans.
Eh the Ottomans weren't anywhere close to Spain at this point(nor were they ever) they were fighting in the south Balkans still. Spain or Castile as it was called back then was the most "stable" it had ever been with most of Iberia under it's control of the Muslims pushed back into North Africa.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 02:45 PM   #46

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Eh the Ottomans weren't anywhere close to Spain at this point(nor were they ever) they were fighting in the south Balkans still. Spain or Castile as it was called back then was the most "stable" it had ever been with most of Iberia under it's control of the Muslims pushed back into North Africa.
You're forgetting how during the latter half of the 15th century after the conquest of Constantinople the Mediterranean was effectively a Muslim lake which the Ottomans did use to have wars with Western European states like Venice. If the Ottomans hadn't done that, I doubt the Europeans would have engaged in searching for different trade routes.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 02:46 PM   #47
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They simply didn't want to expand, nor need to.
Well, lacking ambition is indicative of a culture. Often that is the reason why one man builds a empire and another man does not get past his front gate.

Going back to the discussion the decisive factor is geography. Although it is relatively constant but the advantages it confers is dynamic over the time continuum. At dawn of the history clearly dry river basins were conductive but then that advantage matrix changed as centre of gravity shifted to the Meditearnean and then moved into the cold, damp North Western Europe which hitherto had been on the posterior side of history.

I guess the good news is every dog will have his day
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Old November 20th, 2017, 02:49 PM   #48
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You're forgetting how during the latter half of the 15th century after the conquest of Constantinople the Mediterranean was effectively a Muslim lake which the Ottomans did use to have wars with Western European states like Venice. If the Ottomans hadn't done that, I doubt the Europeans would have engaged in searching for different trade routes.
Still Venice isn't Castile. Great difference betweeen the two. Ottomans also weren't fighting the Venetians for Venice proper but rather Venetian controlled islands like Cyprus and Crete that were well within the Ottomans sphere of power. Ottomans were no threat to Castile/Spain. Venice would be best described as an Eastern European state given that it's the eastern part of Italy and the remainder of it's territory was in the east right in Ottoman sights.

Point is the whole Ottomans pushed the Spanish and Portuguese to look for the new world doesn't make sense especially seeing how the first impulse of these countries wasn't to settle but to mine for resources. While the ruins of the advance American civilization was the good foundation for a colony, the Portuguese took their sweet time developing Brazil and there weren't institutions or cities there for a great deal after the land was claimed. So it's not like these countries were looking for an outlet from the Ottomans.

Last edited by EmperoroftheBavarians43; November 20th, 2017 at 02:55 PM.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 02:49 PM   #49

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Well lacking ambition is indicative of a culture.
If anything, it is indicative in being morally better.


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Often that is the reason why one man builds a empire and another man does not get past his front gate.
I don't get why empire building in the past is good when that led to the same type of mass killing that is condemned nowadays.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 02:49 PM   #50
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The Muslims of Central Asia, however, were surprised. Also, the Jin wasn't at war with the Mongols and didn't pay attention to them, so even they were very much attacked by surprised by Genghis as well.
The Jin was very much aware of the Mongols as they were actively involved in the steppe affairs. The nomads receive Jin titles and as such, the formation of the Mongols was not a surprised to them. When the Mongols began their first attack, it only take about 1 month for the Jin to fully response with a giant army. They met around Wanquan county.

So it wasn't surprised the sense of Pearl Harbor.
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