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Old December 17th, 2017, 04:17 AM   #41

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Originally Posted by Divinespark View Post

P.S. I am also curious in your previous comment about "emotional revisionism," I felt like you were saying it as a disparaging remark. Did you mean it in the sense that you think I was injecting some kind of misplaced modern emotion in the time period and engaging in presentism or are you disparaging revisionism?
Mister Spark,

If this is of importance to you please send a PM. That way my "throw away" rhetorical flourish won't further derail the thread.

I have been away from this forum for a few weeks, posting on more nonacademic subjects while away, that bit about revisionism wasn't necessary to express my deep skepticism whether there were any sources about the use of the 1 million deaths.

Please PM the detail of your source on the figure of ~ 750 000. Thank you, it is EASILY the highest statistic I have ever read. -K
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Old December 17th, 2017, 04:29 AM   #42
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No, if the Germans didn't want to starve all they had to do was get out of France and Belgium which they were busy raping. No sir, you don't get away with that, this is hypocrisy and naivety on your part.
First off, how is it hypocrisy on my part? What hypocrisy have I displayed? And naivety? While violent crimes like rape and murder happen with increased frequency in a war zones (another reason war should be avoided) some of the Belgium atrocities, like Germans spearing babies on bayonets, were propaganda. Again, I'm not some Germanphile who is defending/rationalizing their actions. I have repeatedly stated that there were no "good guys" in the war. You seem to be eluding though that because Germany was doing bad things then that means other nations such as Britain can do bad things which is akin to saying "Well he/she is doing it, so why can't I?" which I feel is a immature rationalization for horrible actions.


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No, there is no comparison between the age of empire and a war between military dictatorships and free and democratic societies.
The major powers engaging in the war were themselves experiencing this "age of empire" at the same time...and military dictatorships vs. democracy, that is rich. Even politicians during that time period knew that was false.
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Old December 17th, 2017, 04:31 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Kotromanic View Post
Mister Spark,

If this is of importance to you please send a PM. That way my "throw away" rhetorical flourish won't further derail the thread.

I have been away from this forum for a few weeks, posting on more nonacademic subjects while away, that bit about revisionism wasn't necessary to express my deep skepticism whether there were any sources about the use of the 1 million deaths.

Please PM the detail of your source on the figure of ~ 750 000. Thank you, it is EASILY the highest statistic I have ever read. -K
No PM is necessary. Just google German Board of Public Health 1918 and you will get what you need. I also post here just in case other individuals who are interested in the numbers can learn about it themselves.

Last edited by Divinespark; December 17th, 2017 at 04:41 AM.
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Old December 17th, 2017, 05:37 AM   #44
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Fsome of the Belgium atrocities, like Germans spearing babies on bayonets, were propaganda.
The Germans executed some 6000 belgian civilians as deliberate thought out before hand reprisal policy for action they knew they had nothing to do with and were in fact fictional. The Germans also instructed their u boats to target Hospital ships.
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Old December 17th, 2017, 05:40 AM   #45
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The Germans executed some 6000 belgian civilians as deliberate thought out before hand reprisal policy for action they knew they had nothing to do with and were in fact fictional. The Germans also instructed their u boats to target Hospital ships.
And Britain ordered merchant vessels to try and ram uboats that announced their presence in an effort to give them a chance to unload their passengers. If your point is that war is heinous then I'm in full agreement.
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Old December 17th, 2017, 06:34 AM   #46

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And Britain ordered merchant vessels to try and ram uboats that announced their presence in an effort to give them a chance to unload their passengers. If your point is that war is heinous then I'm in full agreement.
Germany also declared unrestricted submarine warfare and attacked everyone's boats, even if they were neutral. Britain was targeting military weapons, in this case the U-Boats. Let's take a look at the other Central Powers. All of them committed various atrocities ranging from summary executions of civilians all the way to a full-blown genocide. Austria-Hungary rampaged through Serbia, doing things like Šabac and Krupanj massacres, 36 day long bombardment of Belgrade, Hungarian devastation of the Serb villages in Syrmia, Bulgarians tried to erase Serb identity from southern Serbia and they left a trail of blood as we see from the Surdulica, Vranje and Štip massacres. I don't even have to talk about the Ottomans and the Armenian Genocide. While we know that the Entente also committed war crimes, they didn't commit genocide and didn't seek to erase entire nations from the face of the Earth.
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Old December 17th, 2017, 07:18 AM   #47

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Germany also declared unrestricted submarine warfare and attacked everyone's boats, even if they were neutral. Britain was targeting military weapons, in this case the U-Boats. Let's take a look at the other Central Powers. All of them committed various atrocities ranging from summary executions of civilians all the way to a full-blown genocide. Austria-Hungary rampaged through Serbia, doing things like Šabac and Krupanj massacres, 36 day long bombardment of Belgrade, Hungarian devastation of the Serb villages in Syrmia, Bulgarians tried to erase Serb identity from southern Serbia and they left a trail of blood as we see from the Surdulica, Vranje and Štip massacres. I don't even have to talk about the Ottomans and the Armenian Genocide. While we know that the Entente also committed war crimes, they didn't commit genocide and didn't seek to erase entire nations from the face of the Earth.
Greece and Romania in the immediate aftermath? Weren't minorities moved by the victors also? Even in Voivodjina (spelling) I believe?

The victors were far from ideal in the manner they treated their own minorities.

I am not taking the time to look up the case of Voivodjina but my recollection is of Hungarian speakers leaving.
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Old December 17th, 2017, 07:30 AM   #48

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Actually, the percentage of Serbs and Hungarians remained pretty much the same before and after the war. In 1910, Serbs were about 33%, Hungarians formed about 28%, and in 1921 the Hungarians decreased to about 25%, though the number of Germans increased. The decrease of the Hungarian population can be explained by the fact that before the war, a policy of Hungarisation was implemented, and many non-Hungarians were identified as Hungarians, people like Slovaks and Ruthenians. WW2 had a much bigger impact on the population of Vojvodina than WW1.

As for Romania, most Hungarians remained in Romania and they actually grew in number after migrations from Hungary (about 200,000 fled), but keep in mind that A-H censuses were based on language, and not everyone who spoke Hungarian was actually ethnic Hungarian. Romania did institute Romanianization though, that part is true, but even then the most of the work was actually done by the post-WW2 Communist government after abolishing the Hungarian autonomous region.

Last edited by Maki; December 17th, 2017 at 07:39 AM.
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Old December 17th, 2017, 07:38 AM   #49

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Thanks Maki.

But... Ruthenians had migrated as farm hands? That was common?
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Old December 17th, 2017, 07:49 AM   #50

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Ruthenians were a tiny minority both before and after the war, their population didn't change dramatically. Vojvodina Ruthenians were concentrated in just three villages in Bačka.
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